In this episode we speak with Christy Martin from the Hawaii Coordinating Group on Alien Pest Species (CGAPS) about the impact of invasive species in Hawaii. It is estimated that there are over 20,000 species that impact our ag producers!
The Coordinating Group on Alien Pest Species (CGAPS) is a voluntary partnership of federal and state agencies and non-governmental organizations whose goal is to protect Hawaii from invasive species that impact the economy, environment, agriculture, and public health. CGAPS works to close the gaps in Hawaii’s terrestrial and aquatic invasive species prevention and response systems through greater coordination, planning, and management. CGAPS is a project of the Pacific Cooperative Studies Unit of the University of Hawaiʻi. CGAPS staff also work with regional, national, and international partners on priority invasive species issues, including the synergistic effects of climate change and invasive species.
Find out more about us:
In this episode we speak with Christy Martin from the Hawaii Coordinating Group on Alien Pest Species (CGAPS) about the impact of invasive species in Hawaii. It is estimated that there are over 20,000 species that impact our ag producers!
The Coordinating Group on Alien Pest Species (CGAPS) is a voluntary partnership of federal and state agencies and non-governmental organizations whose goal is to protect Hawaii from invasive species that impact the economy, environment, agriculture, and public health. CGAPS works to close the gaps in Hawaii’s terrestrial and aquatic invasive species prevention and response systems through greater coordination, planning, and management. CGAPS is a project of the Pacific Cooperative Studies Unit of the University of Hawaiʻi. CGAPS staff also work with regional, national, and international partners on priority invasive species issues, including the synergistic effects of climate change and invasive species.
Find out more about us:
The views, information, or opinions expressed during the Seeds Of Wellbeing series are solely those of the individuals involved and do not necessarily represent those of the University of Hawaii College of Tropical Agriculture and Human Resources our funders, and any affiliated organizations involved in this project. Welcome to a Seeds Of Wellbeing"Voices from the Field" podcast, featuring voices of Hawaii agriculture producers for Hawaii agriculture producers. These podcasts are made possible by a grant from the University of Hawaii College of Tropical Agriculture and Human Resources, also known as CTAHR and the Seeds Of Wellbeing or SOW Project and is supported by grant from the US Department of Agriculture, National Institute of Food and Agriculture, and the Hawaii Department of Agriculture. The intention of these podcast series is to create a safe space for respectful and inclusive dialogue. With people from across a broad and diverse spectrum involved in growing and making accessible the food we share together. A diversity of voices perspectives and experiences can serve to deepen mutual understanding, to spark creative problem solving and provide insight into the complexities of our agricultural system. If you, our listeners, have experiences with Hawaii agriculture ecosystems, from indigitous methods, permaculture, smallholder farmers to large including multinational agricultural industrial companies, and everywhere in between, and you would like to share your story, please contact us. We welcome your voices and perspectives. Thank you, Christy, for joining us on the Seeds of Wellbeing podcast. Pests and invasive species came up as one of the top stressors for our ag producers in our survey and so we're so delighted to have you join us in this conversation. So let's start by, if you can just introduce yourself and who you work with. Christy.
Christy:Sure, I'm Christy Martin. I work for actually I work for the University of Hawaii, for a project called the Coordinating Group on Alien Pest Species, or CGAPS. And this group started as a partnership of agencies University and non government organizations way back in the mid 1990s - remember then - when invasive species were really, really a hot topic, and we realize that we have a lot of different agencies working on the issue, but perhaps not coordinating as well as possible and perhaps working with antiquated laws and procedures. So not doing the best, most protective actions to protect Hawaii from invasives. So we continue today as a group that facilitates conversation, projects, facilitates better biosecurity for Hawaii.
Thao:So can you, can we ask you to explain the difference between pests versus invasive species?
Christy:How you know, for Hawaii, they are nearly the same thing. So I'll step back and say for an invasive species, that means it is a species that is not native to Hawaii, that it didn't catch the three W's as we teach the kids in the schools: wind, wings and waves, or it didn't come from one of those species. So didn't, derive from one of those species. So we have about 20,000 native species, things that caught the three W's and all of their subsequent generations. But we have a lot of non native species. These are things coming in with people and our conveyences. Some of these things would never have arrived in Hawaii without them. So when we (muffled) those are non native species that get to a location through us or our means of transport, and they cause harm, either harm to people, our values, public health, that sort of thing. And when you talk about pest people throw that term around a little bit loosely. When we are looking at agriculture and agricultural producers, though, the term pest is typically either a, an insect or a, it can even be a plant disease, or even a plant that is not behaving well. In Hawaii, the vast number of pests that are affecting agriculture. are invasive species. They are not native to Hawaii. And so they are almost synonymous for the purpose of our talk today.
Thao:So right now currently, how many invasive species pests are we talking about? That would be impacting our ag producers?
Christy:Oh, gosh, you know, nobody has actually done counts. Bishop Museum is a place where people voucher specimens, new species that they find in Hawaii. And I don't think that we even have a great count from them. Hawaii Department of Agriculture also has a count. We're talking far more than 20,000 species, though. Yeah. non native invasive species outnumber the native species at this point.
Thao:Oh, my goodness. So when the farmers are saying that invasive species is one of the top stressors, or it's high up there on the list, from your perspective, will this does this make sense? Then how would that impact? Well, because there's 20,000 are we, are there a selective few that are really impacting ag producers right now? What are they?
Christy:Yeah, I think that there are a few top ones that we can use just to illustrate. That result from the survey didn't surprise me at all. We work a lot with the agricultural producers and industry groups, that they are always dealing with things like feral pigs, feral deer getting into their their commodities, crops and eating them down to nubs. All the way to diseases on basil, over to the nursery industry where little fire ants are sneaking around the state, hidden still in plant pots and plant commodities. It's no surprise to me, there are some top issues. But I think one of the things that, that is so stressful for farmers is that it's almost like a "Whack a Mole." When you think you're dealing with one, then you have another one come in and you have to deal with that, and it's a whole new regime, and you have to do something completely different sometimes. It's just never ending.
Thao:And so it's, it's unpredictable, too, because you don't know there's going to be another one that's looming and is going to decimate a particular crop or commodity.
Christy:Yeah, that is right. I think all farmers are very, I don't want to say optimistic. but there is an element of you know, maybe this year, the weather will be great, the water will be perfect. Maybe this year, we won't have invasive species come in and eat our crop. They do a lot to protect their crops but sometimes you just can't anticipate what that's going to be.
Thao:So have you ever done a study on looking at the cost of invasive species for farmers? The impact?
Christy:I don't think we have ever done a an accurate assessment of what that cost is, I think that would be very interesting. Because it seems to be all mixed up in in the flow of work. You could to a an estimate of how many how much pesticides and man hours, that sort of thing, it would take but you're also talking about production loss, opportunity loss with invasives. So I think it'd be an interesting study to do.
Thao:Okay, so let's talk about some of the protection strategies, protective strategies that we currently are in place right now to help our ag producers from the next invasive species, or the current ones we're still struggling with. Could you give us an explanation about what are working well, and what is not working so well?
Christy:Yeah, well, let's start with prevention. Prevention is a really tough topic to discuss and conceive of so. But in general, what you, because it's a state of the United States we have the US Department of Agriculture and Customs and Border Protection, that do the inspections for foreign commodities coming in. So they look at things like ship commodities coming in from Japan, China or even, you know, Caribbean area. That's, that's what their responsibility is. So all of the pests that are found in outside of the US, that is USDA, primarily. The State Department of Agriculture, the Hawaii Department of Agriculture, does domestic importation issues. So they look at domestic imports of things coming over from California or maybe Florida, and when you have two different agencies, they have two different mandates, and honestly two different lists. So USDA is not looking for everything that could be a pest of Hawaii, they're looking for a short list of things that could be problematic to agricultural trade, in all honesty. And Hawaii is not a major agricultural trade partner, so we don't have a whole lot of things on those lists, we do have a few, you know, good things, and we've got great people that will look for things. Hawaii Department of Agriculture has a much more protective list, but they don't have the, the staff and the procedures and, and the workflow, that and honestly, the regulations, the rules to do the best, most protective work that we could see. So there's a few gaps. Some of them are because of laws, some of them are because of capacity. And some of them are simply because we've done things this way for a long time, and we're not changing. So some of it is human nature.
Thao:So for instance, if when, when we leave Hawaii to go to mainland, we have to get our bags inspected. And and you know, it's agriculture inspected. Now for for mainland folks when they come to Hawaii, that's not necessarily the case. And so that, I mean, to me, we're so vulnerable on an island. It's, you know, we have the form when we are on the plane to say, "are you bringing any...?" but that's just a form? And, and is that being monitored sufficiently to make sure that we are protecting ourselves from stuff that's coming, potentially hitching a ride, from the mainland?
Christy:Yeah. So there's a couple of issues mixed in there. So let's try and try and get at that prevention issue. So you're right, there is inspection as we leave, that is largely to protect California, from the invasive pests that have invaded Hawaii. So things like fruit flies, and it is paid for by them. Oh, they feel we Yes, that's what supports that inspection service there is they are investing because California is such a big producer for the nation. And because so much trade is related to the value of those crops in the US mainland, that's why we have to do inspection before we leave here. Okay, from our perspective, though, as as Hawaii residents, Hawaii is super valuable, for so many reasons, right? We would love to have better inspection coming in for lots of things. And I'm going to set the, the voluntary - it's not voluntary, it's required, but honestly, nobody's counting passengers matching up names with the manifest - I'm gonna set that aside for a second to say the vast majority of pests that we see coming in, are on purposefully imported cargo, or hitchhiking on those goods, or even on the crates and containers. Oh, so focusing effort, there would be a really, really, you know, if you were to prioritize all the things that you need to do for prevention, that would be one of the top things we should do. Let's use some data and some science to figure out what and exactly how much inspection do we need to do to be able to find the vast majority, maybe 80% of the pests coming in? And then what random inspections do we need to do to make sure that we're catching things? I because you inspect the things that you know have pests, right? But there's new pests moving around all the time. And so how do you catch that one quarter percent of new things that are going to show up if you don't do those randoms? Right, so that would be my preference.
Thao:And that makes total sense to me. Because if, and have you done the statistical model to see like, what would what would that entail? How much capacity build up? Would you need to be able to do this?
Christy:I think that that would be a great study and I think the University would be well poised to do that. It has been a little bit difficult because department has been, Department of Agriculture has been trying to build up some capacity. And, and I have to say shout out to them. They are they are trying, but they have less capacity today than they did 10 years ago and less capacity 10 years ago than they did 10 years before that. And yet our income and cargo and the complexity of our transportation network that allows these pests to get on and get in and get over is only increasing. So I do have to say that. But it would be a great study with the eye towards what would it take to get the 80% of, of high risk things inspected? Or with with a 20% random, and this is not something I'm making up. This is not my genius idea. This is based on what New Zealand does, and what Australia does. They're very protective, and they're able to catch the vast majority of things very early and prevent them from impacting their ag industries in the first place.
Thao:So what would you say it's sort of a limitation for us to move forward in this direction that since you, it is an issue and farmers are saying it is an issue?
Christy:Yeah, it is an issue. Farmers are definitely feel it, conservation folks are saying it as well, because they're seeing pests up in the forest as well. Homeowners, we're seeing new things. I mean, the avocado lacewings busy eating my avocado tree as we speak. Right. And so, yeah, it's impacting all of us. And yet, we're not necessarily resulting in change in the right direction. So I think if we could communicate this to legislature and the the new administration, I think that that would be that would be a great step that we could all take together this year, and next year.
Thao:I mean, because if you mentioned that it's a biosecurity issues isnʻt, is it not? Because you mean pets, impacts the wellbeing not only the farmers wellbeing, but on our wellbeing as the general public? And food, of course, impacts our wellbeing. So it's all interrelated and connected. So but like you mentioned, it hasn't been a priority it seems like, for many years, and and you're struggling and trying to bring this issue to light. What do you think would facilitate this conversation to be more at the table?
Christy:Yeah, like I said, I appreciate the study. getting that out there in front of legislators, with a plan to address it would be the next step. I think we will need help.
Thao:Yeah, I'm because I see you're smiling. But I imagine it's not a...
Christy:It's not a happy issue. Honestly, we have a plan. We've got the interagency biosecurity plan that was the priority of the previous administration, but it was a public process. And everybody came to the table with what they thought needed to happen. And it's a 10 year plan, we're halfway through that. It's in 2017 through 2027 plan. And we've been able to achieve about half of the nearly 150 items on the plan, either achieve it or restart it, but what's left are the hard things. Things like better border biosecurity, building up the Department of Agriculture to work smarter, and, like focus their limited effort in the best possible ways. And so it's, it's not without a plan, a game plan and legislators are aware, I think that they can sometimes be a little bit overwhelmed. Give me the one thing that we need to do together this year, and then tell me what the one thing is going to be for next year. And then the one thing after that, so that they can see that it's a foundation, and where we're going to be at the end. I think that that's some of the communication that needs to happen.
Thao:But that's actually exactly what I was going to ask you. Can you give me one to two ideas for that for 2023 since we're moving in this direction, that you would think would have most short term and then eventually long term impact?
Christy:Yeah, I think, well, some of the things that the Department is already doing is super important to support and that's not a legislative ask, but it's it's nuts and bolts working on the rules that provide the framework for them to operate. So they are doing rulemaking now to update their rules. Some of their rules haven't been updated since the 1900s. I mean, and I'm not even talking 1990s I'm talking early 19 hundred's
Thao:Oh my goodness.
Christy:Yeah, because it's a very complex system. And, and you, it's difficult to update rules and regulations, but it is time. We have to do it. So I'm not going to rattle off rule chapters that we need to update but but we need to make sure that the Department gets the support to do that. For the legislature, I would say that we need to ask for numbers, measure measurable numbers so that we can figure out where we need to go and what is quote, good enough. What is manageable. So how many inspectors do we need to inspect the high priority items? What inspectors do we need to do that 20% more? How many inspectors do we need? And what type of equipment also, what types of technology? Do we need to be able to inspect non agricultural items, because that's where they focus is only on the Ag items. And then there's things that are coming in with pests that are not agricultural items, which they tend not to focus on.
Thao:Can you give us some examples?
Christy:Yeah, sure. There can be things coming in, for example, we've, what is a good example? We can have shipments of, for example, household goods, and, or, or building materials, let's let's go with that one building materials, it's got lumber, you got everything stuffed into this one shipping container. And because there's no agricultural commodities in there, they will not take a look at it. But the container may have been on the ground in an area that's infested with red imported fire ants. And they could have moved into the container with the, with the materials that gets staged outside and get completely transported over. That's outside of what the Department of Agriculture can, and will do at this point, because I think they feel it's not clear in their their authorization. So once we get a handle on the high risk, agricultural commodity inspection, we need to build up some of those other capacities.
Thao:Okay. And the high was commodity inspections are like you mentioned, the cargoes and all the shipping containers that come in,
Christy:The high risk things are the agricultural products that we bring in. And so the pests of agriculture that we're seeing, ride in on the agriculture we import to consume or plant. So we have to make sure that those commodities are inspected, that's where they focus their time. They can't do 100% inspection. They, they sometimes do paper inspections. But I think, again, a numbers based approach, what is our target? How do we know we've met it? And how do we get some of those random inspections, to use data to inform future inspections?
Thao:So how would you respond to folks who said "No more No more inspection, no inspection, please, that would just be hindering our ability to do what we need to do."?
Christy:I guess I would offer them a tour, first of all of our agricultural producers. One of the most eye opening tours I ever did was visiting farmers in upcountry Maui. And just their stories of trying to produce are heartbreaking. They run these farms, they are older generation. Some of them are just new up and coming farmers and they're just beside themselves trying to figure out how the heck do we farm with all these pets coming in? So I guess, if I had my wish, I would do that tour first. And then the second tour I would do is take them to New Zealand.
Thao:And see,
Christy:show them how easy it could be to make sure we're all protected.
Thao:Yeah, so for the young folks who would want to they hear you and they listen to you and they may be interested in invasive species. Could you say what are some of the highlights of what you do and why you do what you do?
Christy:Yeah, well, I grew up here I was born and raised in Hawaii. And I was always curious about the outdoors, I was always the one out there catching geckos, and all sorts of crazy stuff. So I have just this interest in in the natural world, always had a garden, always did that sort of thing. So I think, for those of us that, that really deeply love what we have, or what we used to have, it's not a lost cause. We can put in place the changes that we need to be able to protect it for our next generation, or for our older age. I do think that it is achievable. And there's examples out there, in so many places, not just New Zealand, there's so many examples out there of what we can do. We just need to be a little bit more humble, and a little bit more open to doing, rolling up our sleeves and doing this work to to protect Hawaii.
Thao:And so what sort of training would you need to be able to do what you do? Again, I'm trying to the workforce
Christy:Oh next gen Oh, yes, let's get my replacement. Let's development.
Thao:Oh, that sounds great to see. So we're going to end our do it! Well, a little bit more than. I did go to the University of Hawaii and I went there for my Bachelor's, I was not that interested in the strict zoology path, or the botany path or even the Ag Science path. So I wrote my own program. And I put in there all the things I thought I would need. So environmental science, I took fisheries production, and all sorts of random classes. So if you take a strict path and want to do some, some very core agricultural or conservation, the University is a great choice. There's a lot of universities that are great choices, but but look here at home too. And then there's always the non traditional path. There's a lot of jobs that don't require the two year, four year degree. And, and those are just as valuable. This whole community has to work together. And so it'll take the people with a two, four year degree, they'll the Masters, the PhDs, as well as the people that you know, roll up their sleeves and do the trade skills and the farming and things like that. It's so all of us can can work together. There's a path for everybody out there. And if people are curious about, you know, well, what about me? What about my path? Here's my background, versus how should I move forward? There's always mentors for us out there, too. And don't be afraid to ask, you know, how did you get into your job, I kind of like your job, I want to, I want to do something like that. So lots of opportunities, but something more actionable. You could you could volunteer at farms. You could also do some other types of conservation work that are paid. Kupu is a great program that is paid internships that work in conservation, and you learn some of those same skills that you would need for agriculture. Other opportunities for local Native Hawaiian students, there's the PIPES internship program. So there's lots of support out there for you. And lots of people trying to make sure that our young people stay here, either agriculture, conservation, some green job, or other path, but but there's definitely mindful planning and work that has gone into supporting local students that want to go into local agriculture conservation. conversation here. Just any final words of wisdom or anything else you would like to share with our audience?
Christy:Yeah, I just appreciate this opportunity. It invasive species. Sometimes people don't get that invasive species affect everybody in so many ways, but farmers get it. Invasive species are a stressor. And, for example, fire ants when they move into your property they can also be a public health issue and affect your pets. And nothing is more stressful than not being able to live comfortably where you are. And so if we can all work together to put in place some of those changes that I talked about that would be amazing. I plan to stay here and so I'd love to be able to enjoy what I have today.
Thao:All right. Thank you so much, Christy. We want to thank our guests for their generosity and manao. We also want to thank all our ag producers throughout the islands, and especially those we have heard on the podcast for discussing ways they address the physical, mental, emotional, and spiritual dimensions of Hawaii ag production. Each story each voice contributes to a broader understanding of what it takes to survive and thrive as we feed our communities. Wherever you may find yourself within our island agricultural economies, if you would like to share your story in our podcast, please contact us. Thank you for listening to the Seeds Of Wellbeing "Voices From the Field" podcast featuring their perspectives of ag producers throughout the Hawaii islands. If you have found it helpful, please follow like and share this episode with others. And if you have any ideas about how we can make it better, please let us know in the comments or use the link on our website. Mahalo for tuning in.