In this episode we talk with Dr. Harold Keyser, former University of Hawaii CTAHR Maui County Administrator. Dr. Keyser shares some of his thoughts on the future of diversified agriculture, community-oriented ag parks, and experiences working with ag producers and dealing with pest and pesticide stressors on Maui.
Brought to you by University of Hawaii College of Tropical Ag. and Human Resources, and the Seeds of Well-being (SOW) Project. This podcast is supported by the Farm and Ranch Stress Assistance Network (FRSAN) grant from the U.S. Department of Agriculture, National Institute of Food and Agriculture and Hawaii Department of Agriculture.
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In this episode we talk with Dr. Harold Keyser, former University of Hawaii CTAHR Maui County Administrator. Dr. Keyser shares some of his thoughts on the future of diversified agriculture, community-oriented ag parks, and experiences working with ag producers and dealing with pest and pesticide stressors on Maui.
Brought to you by University of Hawaii College of Tropical Ag. and Human Resources, and the Seeds of Well-being (SOW) Project. This podcast is supported by the Farm and Ranch Stress Assistance Network (FRSAN) grant from the U.S. Department of Agriculture, National Institute of Food and Agriculture and Hawaii Department of Agriculture.
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Find out more about us:
The views information or opinions expressed during the seeds of wellbeing series are solely those of the individuals involved and do not necessarily represent those of the University of Hawaii College of Tropical Agriculture and Human Resources, our funders, and any affiliated organizations involved in this project. Welcome to a Seeds of Wellbeing"Voices From the Field" podcast, featuring Voices of Hawaii agriculture producers for Hawaii agriculture producers. These podcasts are made possible by a grant from the University of Hawaii College of Tropical Agriculture and Human Resources, also known as CTAHR. And the Seeds of Wellbeing or SOW project and is supported by grant from the US Department of Agriculture, National Institute of Food and Agriculture and the Hawaii Department of Agriculture.
Alex:Aloha mai kakau. Welcome back to another podcast episode of the Seeds of Wellbeing"Voices From the Field." My name is Alex Wong, I am working with the University of Hawaii CTAHR College of Tropical Agriculture and Human Resources, Seeds of Wellbeing project and I'm here today with Dr. Harold Kaiser, who is previously the University of Hawaii CTAHRʻs Maui County Administrator. Aloha Dr. Kaiser, mahalo for joining us. How are you today?
Dr. Keyser:Doing very well. Thanks.
Alex:Awesome. Well, let's jump right into this conversation because you have a lot of information to share from all of your experience working with ag producers in the islands. First question. So pesticides came up as one of the top five stressors in our season well being ag producer survey that we conducted in 2021 and 2022. I was wondering why you think that is the case? Why pesticides is at the top of the list and things that are stressing out our local ag producers.
Dr. Keyser:Okay, well, thanks. I guess overall, my take is that it'd be a stressor, because there's been a lot of misinformation that's out there. And it's been a concerted effort, I think over several years. And it, you know, it's easier, I would say, it's easier to scare people than to educate them. And, you know, one of the, probably one of the initial things that got me interested in this, because my background, I was a soil scientist, soil microbiologist, but in my role as Maui County Administrator, you know, one of our, one of my obligations was to provide evidence-based information to the public. And at that time, I, this was several years ago, when there was a lot of misinformation about pesticides and GMOs, the mayor of Maui asked, asked me to assist with providing education to the public using evidence-based information. And that's why I started getting into it in detail. And yeah, it became clear pretty quick that the information that was getting out there was very narrow, and it was focused just on hazards, right? Not underwritten, not in ways you can mitigate the hazard to make it an acceptable risk. And like I said, you can scare people easily, but we live with hazards every day. Think of electricity, driving a car, or power tools. These are all things that are dangerous, hazardous, but we learn how to mitigate that to an acceptable risk. And the same thing is true with pesticides. You know, the, there's a lot of information about, you know, scaring people with debt, or "These restricted use pesticides are poisoning the islands." Well, you know, that's going to stress people out. And, you know, and they say well, you know, are they implied, thereʻve been a lot of implications, oh, you know, just poisoning the islands. Well, you have to take this in perspective. I mean, restricted use pesticides for instance. The number one restricted use pesticide in the Nation, in the State, and the County is chlorine. And it's pumped right into our domestic water supply to make it safe to drink. And it's, it's regulated by EPA. And they recommend up to four parts per million, even in the delivery system, you know, up to your home, you know, up to where, you know, you're getting that water from. So here's a pesticide that almost everyone gets exposure to every day. And it's been injected into the water that we drink, cook, and bathe with, all right? And, but at safe levels, at very low levels that make our water safe, so we don't get sick. And I think, you know, getting out information like this, and that it's also used in our sewage treatment systems. So we don't have a lot of disease organisms being spread all over. And, I mean, it's used in so many things. It's even used in jet fuel for airliners so they don't, so fungicides put in, so that it doesn't clog up the fuel filters, which you don't want to have happen. Anyway. Yeah, I get I think, as a farmer, somebody in agriculture, you know, if you constantly hear this drumbeat that, oh, all pesticides are poisons, and that it's ruining our environment and our health. You know, that could definitely be a stressor, but it's taken out of context. You know, 500 years ago, the fellow who invented toxicology, his name was Paracelsus, he's the one that came up with, he looked and looked, and he found he found out that almost everything at the correct dose is a poison. You know, water, you can take too much water. Anything at the proper dose is a poison. I think he said it's the dose that makes the poison. You look at Botox. People inject it into their face. Well, Botox comes from botulinum toxin, which is the most toxic substance known to man. And so you think, "Well, why would anybody inject that into their face?" Well, as a concentrated form, it's really it's deadly, really deadly. But if you dilute it, and keep diluting it, you know what it instead of telling your brain as a neurotoxin to turn off your lungs or your heart, it tells you, it tells your wrinkles to puff up a bit so that you don't see these lines? So I guess what I mean by point is that, you know, risks are different from hazards. And I think, you know, that there's been too much emphasis on the hazards, pesticides, which get mitigated by risks, and also having a new perspective. You know, the history of pesticide use. You know, EPA was formed in 1970. And before that, pesticides are regulated in different departments. They got consolidated and that was the first time that it came under one roof. And the agency said, from, you know, as a result of public perception and public emphasis that they're gonna regulate pesticides by safety. And they, they did a very good job within the first six to eight years, the average toxicity of pesticides just dropped dramatically, because they told the producers, okay, we know which ones are the bad actors, and we're not going to reregister them, reregister them, and so they had to get rid of them, or they're going to be banned. And it worked out well. And over the years, since EPA started regulating pesticides, not only as the toxicity dramatically dropped, but the use rate that they use in the field has about been cut in half. And the persistence in the soil the half-life of the average pesticide in the soil has dropped. And so you know, when you look at in perspective, pesticides have gotten a lot safer than they were. During the, during World War II, when they had victory gardens in Hawaii, CTAHR even published a really nice publication on home gardening in Hawaii, how to feed a family of four, depending on your elevation, which side of the island you are, the frequency with which you'd plant vegetables to feed, It was really good. Well, the chapter on pest control, the recommendations included, you know, dusting with lead arsnic for instance, and, and a few other things, well, lead arsnic at the time, 1943, that was accepted. You know, and, you know, they had a little bit of caution, they said, you know, read the chapter, it says that this is, you know, toxic, so be careful.
Alex:We've come a long way, havenʻt we?
Dr. Keyser:Well, now, pesticides are much more highly regulated. They have to go through more than 100, some estimates are 120-140 tests that they have to submit, that our data has to be submitted, and along with application to the EPA, to have a pesticide approved. And that gets, EPA reserves the right to restrict that at any time, but they've gotten so much safer. And they're just there, you know, when you look at how they're used, and the benefits from it, it makes you understand more and I think understanding things makes it less scary.
Alex:Well, that's that's the tricky part is, it's easier to like you said to scare somebody using words like poison than it is to hand somebody a 400 page document and say, Here you go, here's the data, here's the evidence.
Dr. Keyser:Yes. Yes, that is the challenge. To present it in any other form that most people, you know, have enough time, and you're dealing in acronyms, and you know, explaining things to
Alex:And the chemistry behind it too, is, it's high level, them. it's very high level. And it's not, it's definitely something that somebody without, you know, with just a high school diploma, you know, educational background, like somebody like that would have a hard time digesting that and understanding what they're reading. Right. So being able to translate the science to the general public, you know, in terms of public perception, that's tricky. I think also the transparency, it's hard to translate. I mean, the fear, like, if we were to draw a connection to like, say, the pharmaceutical industry, and to be able to parse out, you know, the, that corporate industrial complex, with, with our government that's so closely tied with money and lobbying and all that, it can get very convoluted. So, is the only path forward education? Is there any simpler way of kind of, and this is this relates to my second question, like, how would you describe the current state of pesticide usage and public and private perceptions in Hawaii? I mean, we've come like, like you said, we've come a long way. We've definitely crossed certain chemicals and certain things off of the list. I mean, we've definitely come pretty far from the Rachel Carson, Silent Spring DDT era, right? Where do you do you? Do you feel like, like now in 2023 the public perception has gotten better. I mean, I've been on Kauai for the last seven years now, and when I first moved there, there was, is still very much a hot topic. You know, the whole anti-GMO. Even the County of Kauai, the Council members tried to pass their own ordinances, their own laws to ban pesticides and, you know, they were overruled in the State Supreme Court. Have, has anything changed since that, that era about a decade ago of this whole shift in public perception and the fear of pesticides and talking about this whole this whole issue?
Dr. Keyser:Well, I think it has, you know, somewhat abated In the, in the general public awareness because, yeah like you just said, that there was a period there were both on Kauai and Maui there was a lot of activity about around getting, you know, lumping GMOs and pesticides and just banning or, Yeah. You don't hear as much about it. But, you know, the, I think the perception is still there that, you know, we should do whatever we can to avoid the use of pesticides. And, you know, as as to your other observation about, you know, what can we do besides education? Yeah. Yeah, it is, it's a complicated subject and to, for instance, to try and show people that, you know, how much safer pesticides have become. And that we have, we have things in our medicine cabinet that are, that are even more toxic, you know, than pesticides, you know, including aspirin, including caffeine, you know. And trying to explain what toxicity is. It's a long conversation, but you know, there are there, there has to be a certain amount of trust in an organization's like EPA, USDA, World Health Organization, European Union, you know, and they've all looked at this, some of the best experts in the world, in detail. And have pretty much come up with, come up with the same conclusions that you know, when, when properly used, pesticides are not unduly unsafe.
Alex:So for for our listenersʻ edification, if you could just real quick, explain the difference between organic pesticides, and non-organic pesticides. And when I say organic, I'm talking about, like the labels the little seal of approval, like, like signed off by like OMRI, or any sort of third party agency that has been given the ability to put their little symbol on a on a product. What the difference is, is one safer than the other. The usual if you can, please. elaborate a little bit.
Dr. Keyser:Yeah, the, that program, the OMRI and Certified Organic, that's under the coordination of USDA. And then they collaborate with EPA, because every every pesticide has to be registered with EPA. These organic OMRI-approved pesticides, if they're a natural product, if they're derived from a natural source, live or dried from plant extracts, and ones you'd be familiar with will be Rotenone or the copper salts, which have been used for, you know centuries on, for, as a fungicide in the wine list wine grape industry, if they're natural, they can be shown to be natural products, they don't have to go through as, these you know, many hundreds of tests that synthetic compounds do. But they can be they can be just as toxic. And
Alex:If not applied correctly, right, if not applied,
Dr. Keyser:If not applied, correctly, yes, any of them can be toxic at the right dose. And yeah, if not applied correctly. So in there, I think there's probably many fewer options for certified organic use, but like I said, they tend to use either natural mineral or plant based products. And you'll see that up on the label on non organic like they have to go through much more extensive testing but yeah, natural products like Botox, or botulinum toxin, Rotenone these You know, it's, it can be user unfriendly. You get it on your skin or enough exposure to it. So yeah, it's anything can be toxic.
Alex:Yeah, so the main takeaway is, even if it's organic, if it's not used correctly, it's still poison, right?
Dr. Keyser:Right. And I should say that, you know, one of the best ways to de-stress about all this is becoming familiar with what's called the worker protection standard. Whether it's for homeowners, or organic producers, or conventional ag producers, the worker protection standard, is what EPA put out in 2017. And it's when they say worker protection standard, they're talking about for agriculture for commercial agricultural workers. If you know, if you produce if you're a farmer, greenhouse grower nursery grower, and you use pesticides, they have, these are new and revised rules because that that focus on the worker, right. And they have many, many regulations, many record keeping requirements, training or annual training requirements. And it really is probably the best information available about how to use how to safely use Use the proper PPE, right? Always. pesticides to protect yourself to protect the environment. And it's really, it, you can, there's a site, from the test site education collaborative resources, you can look at all the information there, the videos, the original training videos that are required for all pesticide workers and handlers. And agricultural establishments, but the worker protection standard, you know, really addresses what you're talking about is that whatever pesticide is, what the personal protection equipment has to be for given product, you know, all other variables about when to apply it, how to read your label correctly, you know, how to notify others, that a pesticides been applied, not to go into that area for a certain amount of time, how to dispose of the pesticide container. It's quite comprehensive program. And EPA developed it specifically focusing on the workers because they realize I mean, that's that's where the real exposure is, not, I mean drift and public exposure is very minor. And you can imagine the most hazardous point with handling pesticides is in a concentrated form, so when you're mixing it, you know, and handling it. So they, they focus a lot on on the hand wash safety. Oh, yes, yeah. Do you know, there's been a lot of studies done and, gosh, it's, I'd have to look, but like 80-90% of the exposure comes from your hands up to your elbow. And so, okay, the smart thing to do is, you wear chemically, chemical resistant gloves, all the time. You know, even even if I mean, the label is the minimum, and the label will say on it, what the personal protection equipment requirement is, and even if doesn't require gloves, you should wear gloves, because if you're using it routinely, well, that increases your exposure. But if you've got chemical resistant gloves, that really helps. And also face protection, because, you know, after your hands, then, you know, eyes and your face. And probably there's really good information on that also, from in the ag, whatʻs called the ag health study. And the agricultural health study, it's a, it's now in about its 30th year, is a study that is coordinated by EPA, OSHA, National Cancer Institute, and they basically have looked at a cohort of it's an 80,000 pesticide, registered pesticide applicators in the US. This has been going on for 30 years. And, you know, they enroll the people, they get information yearly on what products they use, how much, what their exposure has been, and they follow them through their life. And it's a tremendous study that, you know, hundreds of publications have come out of it. Because they're looking for, you know, what are the biggest risks, right, for pesticide users. And, you know, one of the big things is always shows that his gloves matter, right. And using the proper PPE is essential.
Alex:So, that brings me to jumping ahead to one of my questions, which I think he started touching on his who is responsible for recording and publishing pesticide-related injuries, deaths and health effects in the state of Hawaii? Is there any agency that like if they hear of a farmer or an ag producer passing away of cancer or some some illness that could potentially be correlated to their profession or the occupation, who who follows up with that family to document you know, the potential statistic there?
Dr. Keyser:Well, yeah, I must say, I'm not sure the exact Hawaii rule on that, but any pesticide violation would go start with the pesticide branch of Department of Ag. and, and there they have they have to inspect incidences of any public complaint in each county. And if there were serious injury, I'm sure they would either bring in Hawaii, HIOSH, the Hawaii Office of Safety, or public health department. Yeah, if thereʻs been, but yeah, it would first be pesticide branch. Now, somewhat related, you know, you mentioned on Hauai a few years ago, there was several people from the general public who were concerned that there have been, you know, larger incidences of cancer, that there should be cancer clusters in Kauai, and they were claiming that, well, they were saying could be related to the large ag industries there. And the Department of Health and has a, well the University of Hawaii Medical Center, Cancer Center, and the Department of Health, I think it was called the tumor registry division, they got together to address those concerns, and they didn't find anything, but, yeah, to your question, itʻd be if there's a serious, if there were a serious accident causing death, or serious injury, it would be, first, the pesticide branch, and probably the Department of Health and yeah.
Alex:Okay, so just for everyone's edification, those would be the agencies to report it to.
Dr. Keyser:Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, as I mentioned, EPA regulates pesticides for registration - they're the national authority - but they give the State the authority to carry out the enforcement of that, and to add even more regulation if the want to.
Alex:Okay. I do have another question. We're jumping around a little bit, but to stay on the pesticide topic. So you were a co author of 2018 publication, the Hawaii pesticide policy and law review project. So I was wondering what were the recommendations made as a conclusion to that publication, that project. And since 2018, have any of the recommendations been implemented? Have we moved forward? Have have, you know, and I'm sure the 2018 publication was probably, you know, in light or related to the whole public interest, right, growing interest in this whole topic of conversation. So I was wondering if anything's changed since 2018.
Dr. Keyser:Yeah, so in, in that report, we, we looked at Hawaiiʻs regulation structure, their rules, requirements and compared them to a few states similar in size, like Oregon, Vermont, and some others. And, you know, Hawaii was very equivalent, in many respects, to the other States, in terms of, you know, we compared it on a per capita basis, on the Department of Agricultural budget devoted to Pesticide Regulation, those things. And we basically concluded, you know, we also looked at all the environmental studies had been done, and as I related before, it's gotten, you know, there's been studies on pesticides in water, and drinking water as well as in groundwater. And these studies, again, have all gotten, over the years, especially after contagions have gone out, things have gotten much better. And very little, hardly anything above very small, detectable amounts have been found. And the recommendations for improvement that we provided then was to help put emphasizing, clarifying the new rules for instance. At that time, this is 2018, at that time, they just put in, the legislature just passed new regulations about setback distances from the schools, right, and so and and from other facilities. And it wasn't clear at that time information about how people can find out about this. Our recommendations were on, okay, for farmers, letting them know how and where they had to do this. Also, in recommendations to provide information to all the schools, all the DOE facilities, about their use of pesticides. There should be real clear policies about that.
Alex:On campus, in K through 12, schools, maintenance and facility personal using pesticides for weed control, herbicides or whatever. Right.
Dr. Keyser:Yeah, for cleaning products. And the, you know, since that time, there has been clarification and more administrative rules on making it clear. One, one thing that we that we also did recommended in the end was, for instance, that's hasn't probably been done yet I don't believe, but itʻs policy level, for instance with the, when they're deciding on where to site new schools, you know, don't put it in ag zones or, or if you have to better pick ag zones that have currently a lot of fallow area around it. Things like you know, just having more coordination, more information, so, so that these new rules can be effectively implemented. Yeah
Alex:So I'm sure you would appreciate that our listeners don't call you directly with all their pesticide questions. Where could our ag producers and the general public with questions on pesticides in Hawaii, where would you refer them to? No matter what island they're on, what agency, what office, or what website would be useful?
Dr. Keyser:You know, if it's specifically about pesticides. So the pesticide branch of Department of Ag you know, in each county, they have an educational specialist. And I've dealt with them a lot and in Maui County, and they're very helpful. And that's, that is their job. You know, they're, they're not in the enforcement branch of the pesticides division. Theyʻre educational specialists, because they know that that's needed. And yeah, they, you know, sometimes when you're reading a pesticide label, so I mean, these labels are, I mean, some of them are just, the wording, you know, and the organization of it, it can be a little confusing. Okay, can I use it in this situation? Or how much? And all this? And, yeah, they there's on the website of the pesticide division, that they have the contact information? And that'd be the first place I'd recommend asking. Because, you know, if it's, yeah, if it's a question about using the pesticide, you know, whatever's on that label, as EPA says, the label is law. And the pesticide educational specialists can help you interpret that, to make sure you're in compliance. Or just I mean, even answering, you know, you know, general questions about, well, how do you do that, you know, how do you comply with this part? Or, you know, what technique do you use to measure this and things like that?
Alex:Also, maybe your local CTAHR extension agent?
Dr. Keyser:Oh, yeah. I mean, that's for the pesticide if, you know, for general information about, okay. If you're considering alternatives are using pesticides in an integrated pest management program? Oh, yeah, absolutely. I mean, CTAHR has a lot of good information on integrated pest management. That is, you know, taking it in the context of all all things you can do. Cultural practices, using beneficials, rotating, and the role, if any, depends on the crop and the situation of pesticide use within that, but certainly, yeah, the within CTAHR, you know, the resources within the ag experiment station, the Cooperative Extension Service, are very good. And, you know, can be very specific in consulting about, you know, your environment, depending on County.
Alex:Right, and you brought up the IPM, the integrated pest management. A lot of that is strategies and tactics in order to minimize the need for spraying anything, right?
Dr. Keyser:That's right.
Alex:The, like you said, the rotation. Getting in, getting out, like, don't keep a certain crop or a cultivar around for too long, right? Change it up. Yeah, it's, there's other ways to, to add tools to your arsenal so that you don't have to be spraying constantly and, and upping the dosage or, or changing up the whatever application or whatever, chemical or, you know, spray that you're using whatever brand you're using, right?
Dr. Keyser:Yeah, exactly. Within context, pesticides, theyʻre they're a tool theyʻre not a solution, but it should be a tool that we're not not afraid of.
Alex:Yeah, and the other thing too, is you know, some sometimes, you know, as a farmer, you really want to grow something you really want to grow cabbage. Or you really want to grow, maybe orchids or a, you know, a specific type of flower, but it's not suitable for where you're located, and you just gotta let go of that idea that you're gonna be a cabbage farmer, right? Or you're gonna be a papaya farmer in a certain area. Right? And you just got to forego that and you know, then you're not gonna be spraying so much if you're growing something that's more resilient of a crop, right?
Dr. Keyser:Oh, exactly. Yeah, you know, I've tried to grow many things, different elevation, and they just get hammered by pests. Other things are much, much more bulletproof. Where I live, this elevation, about 2500 feet in Kula on Maui, you know what? Citrus and avocado do really well and with fertilizer and water they're fine. I, you know, I don't put anything on ʻem, you don't need to because they're, in this environment, they're really well adapted. You'll get a, you'll get pest infestations, but they're temporary, and they don't really do anywhere near enough damage to, you know, justify, you know, even putting soap water on it. You don't have to, ya know. Exactly. And trying to go against that battle, oh, man.
Alex:Yeah, yeah. So I mean, that's another thing too is just selection, right? Common sense. In addition to CTAHR extension agents, right, which is a valuable resource on every island, how about your neighborhood NRCS office, your USDA? Or even the soil water conservation? I used to be a soil water conservation district specialist on Kauai. That's my first job on Kauai. That's why I moved to Kauai. But they know a little bit. They can they can also refer any questions, yeah, to to a specialist.
Dr. Keyser:Yeah, they're a valuable resource also, the NRCS. Yeah. Yeah, theyʻve helped a lot of things.
Alex:Yeah, they were, I believe NRCS was created, right, during, as a response to the Dust Bowl, is that correct?
Dr. Keyser:Yes, they were the first to come up with soil conservation. practices. And yeah, they've done a good job. We recently, here on Maui, DLNR gave a five acre plot to DOE, to the elementary school, and a group of us, a group of retired ag guys, we, yeah it was all in forest at the time, and we helped convert it to an educational farm. And,
Alex:That's awesome.
Dr. Keyser:And it was very helpful to have NRCS come, because they would come in, look at the place and, you know, show us what, what places shouldn't be cultivated or done anything with because it's too steep a slope, they have understand, you know, and from their erosion programs, you know, they can predict what's going to happen. And then they would recommend certain practices, you know, throughout, what, whether it's going to be for the fruit orchard, the animal pasture, or the gardens. So, yeah, they were very helpful.
Alex:I was wondering if there were any non governmental organizations that somebody could also go to for a third party perspective on pesticides, That is that they're, they're trustworthy, they're certified. And it you know, because we live in a country of where, where people are entitled to their opinions, right, and, you know, we also, part of that is also, you're entitled to not trusting the government. Right? And that's part of that's part of living in this this current state of affairs in the islands, the occupied kingdom of Hawaii. So are there is there a non governmental organization that is an authority in the field of pesticides that could also be referred to? I know this question, this is this is not part of the original questions, but I just thought of this. Is there another option out there that's not affiliated with the government that cannot be afil... cannot be tied monetarily or politically to a corporate interest. Is that OMRI? What, what is what is OMRI? Or is OMRI the part of the government?
Dr. Keyser:Well, it's associated with the USDA organic program certification. So yeah, again, that's tied to USDA.
Alex:There's a couple other certifiers though, right? A couple I've gotten, pesticides, herbicides and insecticides that have other little logos, saying that they were like, certified by an organic third party.
Dr. Keyser:You know Iʻm familiar with that. In terms of it, you know unaffiliated organizations, NGOs, on the topic of pesticides. You know, it's pretty much, all the ones I'm familiar with are university resources, are related to ag experiment stations, Cooperative Extension, just because it's evidence-based research. I guess I mean, you could do, they would recommend you to the Cooperative Extension Service, but like, for instance Farm Bureau, they are, but I mean, it's mostly made up of ag producers. But yeah, I mean, the members of Farm Bureau I guess, I mean, they're, they're an independent from government agency. They probably receive funding from, I mean, most of it comes from American Farm Bureau. But yeah. Being, being a die hard scientist, you know, what? Yeah. In science, the only thing that matters is evidence. And so yes, yeah. So I'm, yeah, so I'm, I acknowledge that I'm severely biased towards evidence-based research, and so I really, outside of experiment stations and Cooperative Extension, and scientific publications, yeah, and organizations affiliated with that I'm not sure of other routes.
Alex:Well, the main, the main point is read the label. If you're going to use any sort of pesticide, whether it's organic, or non organic, read the label, follow the label. Use common sense, wear PPE, don't spray near animals, or human beings who are not wearing PPE. Don't spray near a stream or a water source, right?
Dr. Keyser:Oh, exactly.
Alex:Yeah. Don't spray on a rainy day. That's a waste of money. Right? It's common sense things. That's a place to start. But yeah, that's, that's gonna be a interesting thing is, will there, if if this, if the rift between the general public and the public perception continues over the conversation of pesticides, will it, will it end up being having to have a third party non government affiliated organization to step up and also conduct science to verify, right, and replicate? Anyway.
Dr. Keyser:Yeah, that's, that's an interesting question. And yeah, that would be, you know to get funding for something like that, Oh, boy.
Alex:It's, it's, it's, uh, you know, it's, it's all about personal choice. And at the end of the day, if you don't trust if you don't trust the way your food has cultivated grow yourself, right?
Dr. Keyser:Sure. Oh, yeah, absolutely.
Alex:We live in Hawaii? You know
Dr. Keyser:You can grow almost anything in Hawaii. And, you know, as everybody knows, I mean, the large majority of people that are classified as farmers in Hawaii are very small, have very small revenue from farming. And whether you want to consider it as backyarders, gardeners, a subsistence growers, that's great. And whatever choice they want to use, and if they're dedicated to not using pesticides, that's fine. And commercial growers, who incorporate pesticides as part of their general IPM, you know, they have to be able to use them. And they can, and as you say, they use it safely by following the worker protection standard rules, and like we said, the label. That those label has, they have everything. It's a consolidation of all the significant information that had to be used to register that pesticide, including what wind velocities you have to pay attention to, setback distances from wellheads or water sources, all of that, yeah. It it's, it's a matter of choice. It should
Alex:Yeah. So if anything, at least for me, a big takeaway is always be that way. if if it when it comes down to trust where your food comes from, if you cannot trust a stranger, a professional to grow the food that you buy in the store, and if you cannot grow yourself, then buy food from somebody who you trust. Buy food directly from a farmer that you trust, right? If that's an issue. Yeah, it's support local AG, right? Support local ag.
Dr. Keyser:Oh, yeah. And you know, as you say, I'm here in Hawaii, trusting the food, you don't know who's growing your food. Yeah, I mean, that's a big issue, because ~85% of our food comes in from the mainland. Part of this has been addressed. I mean, this issue over many years there's two big programs. One's called the pest pesticide data program, and so every year USDA collects from farmers markets, from grocery stores from all random places, they collect hundreds and hundreds of samples for food, and they analyze them for pesticide residues. And they've done this for years and decades now. And the other program is run by the Food and Drug Administration is called the total diet study where they look at, you know, not just the samples that changed in a pesticide DATA program. But anyway, both those programs together are monitoring the pesticide exposure residues, you know, through food residues, and they consistently, you can look these up. these annual reports, that it's you're talking about 98 for the PDT for the Pesticide Data Program, consistently every year, or 99% of the food that they test is well below any health concern level for pesticide residues. And a lot of times 99.5, and the total diet study, it's a little bit less like 96-97%. And I'm like half of them, they can't find any residue, which is rather amazing, because our capabilities to detect molecules now with gas chromatography and mass spectrometry are just amazing. So
Alex:Does that the total study include meat as well like beef, pork, chicken? Or is it just it's just protein?
Dr. Keyser:The total diet study does. I think the Pesticide Data Program is more on fruits, vegetables, nuts, grains. But yeah, it's all available online. And that is, that's probably the best information out there about our exposure in the general, you know, in the general food supply.
Alex:So, um, this is a great conversation. Before, I'd like to step back next and talk about a little bit more bigger picture things. But is there anything else you'd like to share about the topic of pesticides, or specifically pesticides in the state of Hawaii, across the pāʻina in Hawaii? Based on your experience, based on the general conversation going on in the public and public perception? What's next? Like, what what can we do next to raise the bar, to level up here?
Dr. Keyser:Well, it's easy to say what, you know, just get informed and get educated. But, um, I think probably the biggest, I mean probably the best single thing, even if you're not a producer, is look at the worker protection standards that EPA has come out with, because it is really comprehensive in its safety requirements.
Alex:People gotta read, they gotta read, right? If you want to know you gotta read.
Dr. Keyser:But, but they've made it simple. You can watch two videos.
Alex:Oh, there's video? Okay. If I'll get the links for from you. And I'll put that in the description.
Dr. Keyser:Sure. Yeah.
Alex:If if we can have those videos, I'll have a link. That's the cool thing about technology. We'll post this on YouTube and I'll put in the in the description for the podcast those links. So
Dr. Keyser:Yeah, that pesticide educational Consortium. The they put together all those resources. Yeah, they have the training videos for because there's one for ag workers who don't handle things and another one for handlers and applicators. See how extensive the safety measures are, the information measures. Yeah.
Alex:That sounds good. So we'll include that one for everybody. For everybody's edification.
Dr. Keyser:Yeah, yeah, that's, that's probably Yeah. If you don't want to be read a bunch of long summaries and documents, that's a, I think, it's very informational. Yeah.
Alex:All right. Mahalo for that. So now I'd like to step back. Like the, the overall purpose of the Seeds of Wellbeing podcast is to provide knowledge, but also a bit of support, encouragement, advice, and manao for ag producers across the state of Hawaii. And you know based on our study, we've we've found that a lot of our agricultural producers in Hawaii are stressed out. A lot are dealing with depression because of the difficulties, the uncertainty, the high risk, the low return on investment, the small profit margin, all those things that come along with farming, as an occupation, and as a lifestyle. And, you know, we talk about food security and sustainability and gentrification development, economic viability, all these things kind of go hand in hand in this very complex conversation. So I'd like to step back from just talking about pesticides, and just kind of pick your brain about your experience working in the ag industry, in Hawaii, but also specifically on Mali. And so my next question to you, Dr. Kaiser is, how did you originally become involved in agriculture in Hawaii?
Dr. Keyser:Well, I came to Hawaii about 34 years ago. I had been working for the USDA in their agriculture, Agricultural Research Service as a soil microbiologist, and I kept getting through, you know, affiliation with colleagues, invitations to apply the University of Hawaii, so I finally did and, you know, worked on legumes and nitrogen fixation. And then the last 10 years, I went to the dark side, I became an administrator. And that's like, like I said, when I when I was, an administrator, you have very specific duties, but they they give you like, generally, like, leeway, like 20% of your time for you to decide where to focus on what the needs are in your County. And like I said, you know, the mayor initially approached me about providing some evidence-based research to help with some very contentious topics. And then, in my role, also, as County Administrator, of course. And through connections, you know, you meet a lot of producers, animal, veg, you know, fruit producers, you become very familiar with everybody. And about when I retired, that was in 2012, my son and his business partner had started a wholesale nursery, and they were selling native plants, native Hawaiian plants, to DLNR the Division of Forestry and the NARS system statewide. And that, that business expanded, and when I retired, I started helping them out. And then when these mandatory rules came up, for the worker protection standard, came up I became responsible for coordinator for that at the nursery. And, you know, we would, in certain situations, we had to apply pesticides because, you know, you're sending out you know, Ohia and Koa, and all these native plants over, and you canʻt have them been sent out, you know, with diseases and slugs or anything on. Yeah, and you don't want to do that. That's been a big problem in California. Native plant nurseries, are sending out, you know, native California plants that are infected with Phytophthora root rot, you know, to the forest.
Alex:yeah. Anyway.
Dr. Keyser:And then when the worker protection standards came along, that required a lot more effort, which I took care of, and then pretty soon, I think just because of state funding, where it was, it's hard to get anybody to come train, because your workers have to be trained yearly that are under that protection standards. So finally, EPA approved a course. I could train the trainer's course, which I completed. And so I was able to do that for our, for the nursery, and then and also for some other commercial entities, other ag producers on Maui.
Alex:That sounds like a very lucrative position or job in the ag industry. Is that EPA certified?
Dr. Keyser:Yeah, but you know, it's, you have to do it once a year, each producer. I mean, there's definitely a need for it, because HDOA just can't, it can't do it all. Yeah, but it's, you know, it is satisfying, because it's, you know, people really, they really like understanding, especially the personal and environmental safety aspects of it. And and then the same thing I applied recently with the Department of Transportation roadside management workers on all the islands, training them in pesticide use, and safety. So yeah, that's, so I, really, the most extensive part of my familiarity with agriculture has been, yeah, through my son's nurseries.
Alex:Interesting. So, you've been you've been in Hawaii for over 30 years, and working specifically in agriculture. What challenges have you experienced and observed while working with ag producers in Hawaii? What what patterns do you see coming up over and over again, where local ag producers continue to struggle and run into the same challenges the same problems?
Dr. Keyser:Well, I think it's probably the most, most common one, recurring one is, you know, how do you compete with lower cost of production food that's coming at lower cost of production of materials, and it's coming from the mainland.
Alex:Yeah. Or the third world, right?
Dr. Keyser:Oh, yeah. Exactly. Because we often
Alex:South America, Central America,
Dr. Keyser:Because the cost of land, labor and water here, and that the recent University of Hawaii Economic Research Organization paper on revitalizing ag in Hawaii. I mean, they noted that, on average, that the input costs here are about you know, there's a 40% premium on the time it gets here and delivered. I mean, we see that at the nursery all the time. Yeah. And so the costs, and that's, to me, the biggest issue is stay is staying profitable, in a really challenging environment. I will say I think that my recommendation from looking at this is that, you know, what's really worked have been the agricultural parks. Theyʻre State agricultural parks, and a couple of Counties have their own. And they've worked. Theyʻre in high demand, and we have a lot of fallow agricultural land. And put it, you know, an ADC Ag Development Corporation, they have a lot of land, putting more of that, making it available right here in Maui County, the ag park, you can get, I'm not sure if you can get the 50 year, I mean, the 50 acre leasing any more, but you can get 10-20 acres, 50 year lease, it may be longer than that now. Sorry, very reasonable. When I was on the Board, it was like $100-$150 per acre per year. But you can like I said you can get you know, as long as you'd have to write a farm plan to show that you knew what you wanted to do. And were you had reasonable expectations of being successful and have done your market research. But you can get long term reliability of peace, and a water meter came with that. And oh, That's important, the water. and those are two. And you know, here in Maui County, now, theyʻve about doubled. They've purchased more land and they're gonna the new Director wants to make the second ag park dedicated to organic production. So I think things like that. Have these ag parks because for people that both want to get into it and existing producers and say that they're leasing from they have a year-to-year lease somewhere and they're a little bit reluctant to put in more.
Alex:Yeah, that's difficult. Yeah, I mean, farming is slow ROI. It's it's a long term investment. And I mean, even even as a tenant, just a regular tenant in you know, a rental for a house for residence or an apartment like year-to-year that causes stress right to me. Like, I don't know if I gotta pack up all my belongings and move and you know, find somewhere else next year. But yeah, farming, especially like, investing all your time and energy and money into, you know, making the soils better, increasing organic matter in the topsoil. Like, you can't just pick that all up and take it with you to the next
Dr. Keyser:Yeah you know, and that's why I think, like I said farm. the, you have the ag parks. How are there, I mean, even if there's private ones, there's enough land. And, you know, I think it's a matter of will among local politicians. I mean, it would really help to expand it because itʻs really worked. There's demand for more and even, you know, for for people, maybe who aren't ag producers but want to grow more of their own food to find county providing land for ag, you know, garden alotments. Yeah. 500,000 square foot gardening alotments. People who live in ohanas, or apartments, don't have ag, but want to grow some of their own food. I thank that, I think that would be helpful. Or it could be you know, structured proper
Alex:Allotments. That's the new that's the new keyword right there, allotments. I've heard that term used in I think the UK. They give they give allotments out to people who are going to seriously garden or farm right?
Dr. Keyser:Oh, yeah, by my brother-in-law lives in, in Leeds in Yorkshire. And he has a big alotment and heʻs growing a lot of his own food. Yeah.
Alex:I guess in order to step back from, in order to give a little context for Hawaii, this, the Ag Park is a viable solution is because we're in the wake of the plantation era, right, which was massive scale, like large scale farming, mono-cropping, planting, you know, multiple, multiple acres, 1000s of acres, plantation workers, which is, you know, one step above slavery, right. And there was no coordinated effort to fill all of that land. Once once everyone got unionized, and the price of production went up, and the profit margin went down, and, you know, the competition from the third world and from the mainland killed a lot of the industry out here, what do we do with all that land and how can we effectively break it up into smaller chunks that are workable, and where people don't blow their load financially and give up and quit? And then then, you know, it's just a cycle of just people starting up and then quitting, and then someone else, another newbie, starts up and then quits. And the ag park might, you know, that might be that connecting piece. Right. So
Dr. Keyser:I think it can certainly help. I mean, those those bigger questions you just are asked aspects of that, that you mentioned. Yeah, those? Yeah, that's policy decision. I mean, as I mentioned, there's a lot. There's a lot of fallow land available. And there's a lot of land in the ag development corporation that is supposed to help revitalize ag in Hawaii. It's just, you know, I mean, it's, I'm preaching to the choir, but it's, it's tough. It hasn't been solved in quite a while, you know, what. When the plantation eras, you know, went out, some of the land as the seed companies took some, but there hasn't been a a lot of big scale. And, you know, I think there's like 100,000 acres of fallow land that was formerly still, you know, sugar cane and pineapple that hasn't been put to use.
Alex:So we need more farmers. We need more able bodied people who have the consistency and the discipline and the willpower to show up every day and keep plants and animals alive.
Dr. Keyser:Yeah, I mean, there's, there's programs to help towards that, like GoFarm Hawaii, and internships, and those are all great. It's a, but boy, putting it into consolidating and making a viable business, you know, you've really got to be on almost a niche market. Youʻve really got to do your homework. And yeah, I mean, yeah, it's, it's one of the most expensive places in the world to farm.
Alex:Is it is but you know, I wouldn't farm anywhere else to be honest.
Dr. Keyser:Oh, yeah. Yeah. And and on the other side, you know, for people's own food security and sustainability. You know, I think, you know, the allotments are, are small scale, Ag Park allotments can work,
Alex:Maybe even County Park allotments. There's a lot of county parks on Kauai where it's just a grassy field, you know, and there's no program coordination, there's no programming. So it's just, you know, it's a nice big lawn that is mowed every once in a while. Those can definitely be transformed into public gardens and public parks. I believe that no, things like that you can get behind. So final question. Do you have any additional thoughts, opinions, advice about the bigger picture about the current status of agriculture in the state of Hawaii and how it can be improved upon in terms of economic viability. We're talking about how expensive it is to farm out here. Any thoughts on sustainability and this whole, you know, sustainability is a hot a hot word right now, you know, maybe even overused, but sustainability and the other important term is food security, food security, which which came, definitely I got a lot of attention during COVID is the importance of us being able to not rely on food being imported. Like us, us here, us residents here in in Hawaii, being able to, you know, fall back and and have some reassurance that we can we can grow enough food locally to sustain ourselves. So we don't all starve if there was a massive disruption in the supply chain coming in from the mainland or from other countries.
Dr. Keyser:Okay, well, yeah, in terms of that, in turn, in terms of food security, I think there's more potential to improve that. Because there's a lot of resources, on, you know, on everything from how, you know how the early Hawaiians did it. And it's been added to since then. And that can be done individually, whether it's sitting in your backyard, or some of the things we've talked about, garden plots, alotments, small. And, you know, taking advantage, there's a lot of good information there, and some of the County and State resources being made available can really help food security. Because, what, yeah, we can't, we can grow things, you know, year round. I mentioned, the old CTAHR publication called "Home Gardening in Hawaii" that was put out in 1943. Right, and that was for these victory gardens, and that was put out because Department of Defense said they were going to use more and more of the cargo space coming to Hawaii for defense materials going to Pearl Harbor, and they weren't going to be shipping out enough food and they thought people in Hawaii should be able to grow more food, so they turned to CTAHR. Anyway, you know, there's a lot of great information about, depending on your elevation, and which side of the island you are, how to go about growing food for a family of four on average, you know. Spacing of, you know, of your rows, frequency. You know how many weeks apart, you had to say like plant cabbage, you have a constant supply, you know, and what the processes were to do that. I think there's a lot of, you know, not 1943 style information, but the equivalent today, you know, for them.
Alex:That's like, it's time for an update. It sounds like it's time for a CTAHR update on modern day Victory Garden.
Dr. Keyser:We were thinking about that, and yeah, I did. I looked at the pesticide chapter and said, Okay. Yeah. We gotta get rid of that. But, yeah, I mean, there's, I think for food security I think there's, in my opinion there's more potential to make progress in that, then, and I'm not dismissing anything, but I mean, I think there's more potential make progress on that front than on revitalizing commercial agricultural in the big way. I think that's gonna be generational change.
Alex:So um, yeah, that's, in terms of that, agriculture is a lifestyle. It's it's not just an occupation. It's not just a job. It's a lifestyle. And yeah, the idea is, if everybody, every family has a green thumb, yeah, that will raise the bar for all of us. Right.
Dr. Keyser:Yeah, yeah. You know, I used to hear certain old timers grumble that, you know, oh, these farmers are, you know, it's a lifestyle for them. It's not about, you know, business for profits. And I think we have to understand that there's that whole spectrum, but certainly for food security, as as part of our lifestyle. Oh, boy. There's definitely room to increase that, for sure.
Alex:Yeah. And I think also, my message to the general public to consumers who eat food, you vote with your dollars, wherever you buy your food, you know, who you choose to buy from, the whole"Try buy local" campaign, that that does make a difference, you know, that that money stays in the islands. When you buy from a local producer, a local farmer, it stays in the islands, versus if you buy food, you know, that's imported, that money gets up and it flies away, and it doesn't necessarily come back, ever. So, you know, little things, little things count too, even if it's just lifestyle changes.
Dr. Keyser:Yeah. Yeah. And there are there's there's a lot of people who have a lot of knowledge and experience, you know, from the life, from their lifestyle, incorporating food production in it, that we can learn from for sure.
Alex:Well, on that note, I'd like to say mahalo nui loa for your time and for your, your knowledge and expertise. Thank you Dr. Kaiser. Yeah, it was a pleasure talking with you.
Dr. Keyser:Well, thank you, Alex. I I appreciate the opportunity. Thank you.
Alex:Aloha.
Dr. Keyser:Okay. Aloha.
Thao:We want to thank our guests for their generosity m&r. We also want to thank all our ag producers throughout the islands, and especially those we have heard on the podcast for discussing ways they address the physical, mental, emotional, and spiritual dimensions of Hawaii ag production. Each story, each voice contributes to a broader understanding of what it takes to survive and thrive as we feed our communities. Wherever you may find yourself within our island agricultural economies. If you would like to share your story in our podcast, please contact us. Thank you for listening to the Seeds of Wellbeing "Voices from the Field" podcast featuring their perspectives of ag producers throughout the Hubei islands. If you have found it helpful, please follow like and share this episode with others. And if you have any ideas about how we can make it better, please let us know in the comments or use the link on our website. Mahalo for tuning in. The intention of these podcast series is to create a safe space for respectful and inclusive dialogue. With people from across a broad and diverse spectrum involved in growing and making accessible the food we share together. A diversity of voices, perspectives and experiences can serve to deepen mutual understanding to spark creative problem solving and provide insight into the complexities of our agricultural system. If you, our listeners, have experiences with Hawaii Agricultural ecosystem from indigitous methods, permaculture, small holder-farmers to large, including multinational agricultural industrial companies, and everywhere in between and you would like to share your story, please contact us. We welcome your Voices and perspectives.