Ep. 37. Hawaii Seed Production with Jay Bost

In this episode we talk with Jay Bost who helped found the Hawaii Seedgrowers Network, and ran a GoFarm site on Oahu. When we spoke with Jay we focus on his roles in the beginning and evolution of GoFarm, with a strong focus on the role and importance of local seed production.

Brought to you by University of Hawaii College of Tropical Ag. and Human Resources (CTAHR), and the Seeds of Well-being (SOW) Project. This podcast is supported by the Farm and Ranch Stress Assistance Network (FRSAN) grant from the U.S. Department of Agriculture, National Institute of Food and Agriculture and Hawaii Department of Agriculture.

Resources:
- “Shattering” by Pat Mooney and Cary Fowler
- Hawaii Banana Source
- Kohala Center Seed Initiative
- Hawaii See Growers Network
- Organic Seed Alliance
- CTAHR Seed Program
- Farm Link Hawaii
- GoFarm Hawaii training programs
- UH Master Gardener Program

Find out more about us:

• Seeds Of Wellbeing website
• Seeds of Wellbeing Resource Hub
• All the SOW links

Transcript

Jim: 0:00

The views information or opinions expressed in this episode are solely those of individuals involved, and do not necessarily represent those of the University of Hawaii College of Tropical Agriculture and Human Resources, our funders, or any of the organizations affiliated with this project. Welcome to a Seeds of Wellbeing"Experts in the Field" podcast featuring people working in their fields of expertise to provide support for agriculture producers in Hawaii, in the United States, and in some cases around the world. These podcasts were made possible by a grant from the University of Hawaii College of Tropical Agriculture and Human Resources, also known as CTAHR, and the Seeds of Wellbeing or SOW project and is supported by a grant from the US Department of Agriculture, National Institute of Food and Agriculture, and the Hawaii Department of Agriculture.

Jay Bost: 0:55

Yeah, my name is, is Jay Bost I was untill last summer farm coach in Waimanalo, at GoFarm site there on the CTAHR station, and I think I was with GoFarm for probably around eight years. And I did like 10 cohorts that came through, came through GoFarm. And prior to that, I spent probably like a year and a half as a graduate student at CTAHR, which actually worked out really great, because I had already been starting to do some work at the UH station and then had taken, you know, a lot of classes and kind of was, yeah, able, once GoFarm was trying to get more folks from extension and especially researchers from CTAHR, you know, had taken classes with a lot of people or been to seminars and kind of knew like, alright, this person's like kind of on the same wavelength. They're can kind of conceptualize like the scale that we're talking at and can talk in a not super academic way versus some of the people that just like, yeah, we or would try and then it would just be hard. It's just like kind of overlapping. So yeah, I think before getting into GoFarm, I'd worked on farms in different parts of the mainland and spent some time studying agriculture in Belize. Subsistence kind of agriculture system. Then in some time in Mexico, and yeah, I really just love tropical crops, Tropical Agriculture.

Jim: 2:39

In this episode, we talk with Jay Bost who helped found the Hawaii Seed Growers Network, ran a GoFarm site on Oahu, and has been involved in a number of other Hawaii ag related projects. When we spoke with Jay in May of 2022 he was just starting a new farming venture in North Carolina, but we focus on his roles in the beginnings and evolution of GoFarm with a strong focus on local seed production. Do you have a sense of where that comes from that love of tropical Ag? And what kind of drove you towards this career?

Jay Bost: 3:13

Yeah, I think I think it was between my freshman and sophomore year in high school, there was like a science teacher that I had that was doing this like Tropical Ecology class. And we went down to Belize and like, we spent like a week in the rain forest, and then a week out on like a barrier island like snorkeling and scuba diving. And yeah, I think that's why I was like "Whoa, this is amazing!" And we we just moved last summer and we ended up landing in the mountains in western North Carolina, where I spent a winter before moving to Hawaii about 10 years ago. And then I spent this winter and besides growing up, maybe there's like one oh, there's some other winters but I'm not a big winter fan. And so that definitely draws me into the tropics. I just love plants and growing, photosynthesis, so much that when it's like stuffs dead I just feel like kind of depressed, because I'm like everybody's like asleep around here, it's kind of boring. And then, you know, I already had before getting involved in Hawaii and GoFarm an interest especially in seed saving and sort of seed sovereignty and then worked at a couple of seed farms and with Seeds of Change a seed company a little bit. And then increasingly, largely because of getting to be around Dr. James Brubaker who is getting interested in breeding. And then I started probably like three, maybe four years ago this program while I was still with with GoFarm, where I'd go for like a week, I was six sessions at UC Davis. It's like the plant breeding Academy. And then our last session got put off for like two years because of COVID. And we just had that like a like a month ago. But yeah, starting to get like interested in in breeding and doing breeding. Then the fun part about being in the tropics in Hawaii is like you just harvest and then you replant and you just get to keep you got all these more cycles in. Here it's like getting ready to plant you know, then I'm gonna stop in September, October, and then you gotta like, wait until like next May to get like your next cycle in. So, yeah, I think I think it originally came from spending time in Belize. And then I spent a lot of time in, yeah, in Mexico, and a little bit of time in the in the Caribbean. And just love the cuisines and all the plants that you can grow in the tropics. And you know, I think that was a good wake up call, then spending as much time as I did in Hawaii growing. You know, it's easy for people from coming outside the tropics to be like, "Oh, it's so cool. You just like throw stuff in the ground, and it grows." And it's like, some stuff and also the weed and pests and the diseases also never die. So yeah, in some ways, it's, I think more difficult to farm in the tropics, really than it is in the temperate zone. And there's there's different issues, but it's not like, ah you just stick stuff in the ground and it happens.

Jim: 6:53

You got no kill season. You have all the pests, all the diseases, and it depends on elevation, right. It's all about the elevation. So, I mean, you've done a variety of things, as you just described so let's talk about seeds for a minute. You've, you've focused on that. It seems like that's been a big part of, of what you've been been wanting to work on. So

Jay Bost: 7:18

Yeah, so I you know, I think I had just been for a long time interested in you know, basically the genetic diversity of crops. Both within crops, so like, how many different types of tomatoes are there, and then diversity like, among crops, and I think really, I mean, part of it is just being interested and fascinated by just getting to see and eat and grow like the subtle diversity and differences between different, both within varieties within crops and then among crops and then also undergrad studied, agroecology, and just kind of, you know, learning about how important it is in terms of pests, disease management and nutrients to a certain extent. Yeah, having diversity in the field. If you've got like one field, it's all the same species, and then especially if it's all the same species and it's all the same variety, it's much less resilient system and then if it have a lot more diversity. And then there was a book I read in college it was called"Shattering" by this guy, Pat Mooney and Cary Fowler. And then Cary Fowler went on to become like the director of the Global Crop Diversity Trust and that he was kind of like the main visionary behind the like, Svalbard Seed Bank. And you know, basically just this whole idea that like humans all over the world have like been creating and stewarding all this like genetic diversity of crops that was being, some of it being lost. And so that was my kind of original like, entree into seed was really more about like seed preservation and seed saving and then, like, once I got involved, like, "Oh, this is cool!" Like, you can take this bloom thing and this old heirloom and cross them together and like, yeah, it's not this old thing anymore, and it's not this old anything anymore, but it's still got some of the genes from both of them and then make something new that hopefully does better where you are. Because, you know, as a farmer, from like an economic especially in Hawaii, I knit kind of a niche perspective. If you can go to a chef, like "Hey, I've got this like crazy, whatever colored tomato or Roselle that that nobody else has," it can kind of give you, yeah, like a niche until people figure out you're growing and try to get seeds from it. And so I had, you know, come come to Hawaii with that interest. first started out at CTAHR ended up spending some time in Richard Manhardt's lab who's uh is, I think he's I think he might have officially retired but he's a papaya breeder. And Gabe Sachter-Smith was in his lab as well. And he's the guy commonly known around as banana Gabe, who has a great business, I think, now called Hawaii Banana Source, it's really worth checking out on Instagram is someone that has like an amazing collection of bananas and is doing banana breeding. And he had, he was kind of tapped in to like the organic breeding scene and told me about this program called the Student Organic Seeds Symposium. That was this thing that kind of happens every year were graduate students that are involved studying breeding, and they're interested in breeding organic systems go to so went to that A times with him. And yeah, that just got me really interested in in breeding and kind of exciting. More dynamic than just saving what's old. Like using what's old, but like continuing to adapt it. Like farmers long ago didn't just like sit on stuff like they were constantly changing things and, and then probably from Gabe or, you know, heard about folks like Glenn Teves and Nancy Redfeather, and at that point, had this kind of program running through the Kohala Center that was called the Hawaii Public Seed Initiative. And then had this big conference and it's cool, you can like go on to the Kohala Center's website and they've got like recordings. I think that was like at least, well, I don't know, I must have been like, eight or something years ago now. But they had a bunch of folks out from Seed Alliance. And then there were a bunch of folks from CTAHR, like, Ted Radovich, and Glenn Teves and Hector Valenzuela just kind of like wrestling with like, what is, what is the seed in Hawaii? Like where do growers get their seeds? What's unique about the needs that growers have in Hawaii? And the UH seed lab is like this amazing asset, but it's kind of like frozen in time. Like there was like this old you know, this older kind of cadre of breeders at UH when there was just public money in that. And so they bred all these great varieties that the UHC lab continues to sell. But then as those breeders retired and weren't replaced, then you know, there weren't new varieties coming on. And some of those old varieties are still super relevant but then as new diseases have come in, or yeah, viruses in particular, like with tomato, tomato, yellow leaf currently on on Oahu. Like we can't grow anything. Like you're just setting yourself up for failure to not have genetic resistance to that virus, which exists. So. So yeah, there were all these folks kind of meeting, teaching like community workshops about seed saving. The model was like, train the trainers, so like a couple of people from each island came over, and we all kind of met over at Amy Greenwell. And it was kind of like everybody to meet and it was like, a couple of days of like, you know, just kind of intensive training on like, how tos of seed saving. And, you know, especially in Hawaii, there's issues with it with how to dry stuff down and store it with, you know, dealing with humidity, so you're not having stuff mold. So yeah, then everyone kind of went back to their islands. And, you know, we did some workshops on Oahu, and you focus them on all the islands. And then I don't even remember exactly why or how it happened but there were some of us that just kind of were the most interested and we were all like Oh try this like pepper that I've been saving and so we were all kind of like trading seeds and then we're like, wouldn't it be cool to like start like, like a small little like seed company? And so, with the help of the like Kohala center Nancy Redfeather and Lyn Howe, who was with them at the time, wrote a specialty crops block grant to HDOA. And so that kind of helped yes, start up this web site that is now going where we started, you know, basically yeah just started out as like, each of us had, like 2, 3, 4 varieties of crops, we've been kind of saving seed for for a long time. These do really well, would love to share them. And so we started that. And yeah, it was like, this sweet, like, cute little thing happening. And, you know, we were making like, I mean, we had like, $400 in sales or something a month. And we're like, this is cool. That's, you know, yeah, whatever. It was just really small. And then COVID happened. And I think it was just like, yeah, like, shook a bunch of people and people were just like"Hawaii seed!" And, yeah, next thing we knew, I don't remember now, how high the sales went up but I don't know, at least$2000, maybe was $4000. I can't remember, it whent up to $8000 a month? I don't remember but, I mean, basically, it just like exploded the interest and it's come, you know, come down some since then. But, yeah, I mean, still, it's, it's cruising along. And then I think, you know, especially for me, because I was with GoFarm and, and then Britton, who's with GoFarm on the Big Island, you know, he started out was already involved with the Seed Network, and then kind of through that, got hooked up with GoFarm or knew about GoFarm. But really, yeah, like trying to have that be like a thing to keep farm is folks go through that program. And like, yeah, sure do like your direct to market vegetables, value added products, and then like another thing you could do is grow is grow seed crops and that can be for Hawaii Seed Growers Network is one outlet. And then, like, there's some farmers in the incubator that are growing for the Hawaii Seed Growers Network. But there's a company based out of Virginia called Southern Exposure Seed, and a lot of the things that they offer. And there's things that they offer that you can grow seed to on the mainland, but then there's some crops where it's, you know, just cutting it really close to get it all the way to seed on the mainland. So they're basically like, "Oh, like, can somebody in Hawaii grow this?" And so these guys have kind of jumped on that. And so yeah, we just really tried to weave it into kind of a curriculum where students were learning how to do value added how to do direct to market, vegetable sales, and then seed being just one more kind of avenue. And so that's been super rewarding. The folks who come through GoFarm growing seed for the network, and it's been great for the seed growers network to kind of know that the folks who have gone farm have like this certain, like, known training, and amount of experience. Just because if somebody like writes us, emails us like, "I want to grow seed." We're like, this person, really, you know, you know, it takes some time to kind of figure out what they what they know. And so, yeah, that's been that's been a great thing. And then a bunch of our new growers last year did this organic seed production course that Organic Seed Alliance was offering, this kind of this virtual thing. And then there's some folks doing it this year, as well. And so that's a great opportunity for them to just hear from folks who that's their livelihood. And so factors and researchers and then just network with other new growers, people interested in seed from around the country.

Jim: 19:32

So so just, I'm sorry, some of the some of the things broke up a little on the Zoom call. So I'm just confirming, am I hearing you say that that you kind of took up the baton for the CTAHR folks that were doing the seed cultivation at at CTAHR at UH, and you kind of took over the baton for them because they were starting to, you know, retire out if you will?

Jay Bost: 19:56

Yeah, I don't know. I mean, I wouldn't really say that we took the baton although I feel like I think just because we were new and small and more independent, we were able to be like a little more like nimble and innovative. And yeah, I mean, the Seed Lab has these like amazing old varieties Koba, green onion, which, you know, tons of growers still grow. I don't know all the details. I know that the Seed Lab is like, you know, financially struggling or has in the past and there's yeah, there's not really much breeding happening right now at CTAHR just like, that's happened all over the all over the country. So yeah, I really like to think that what we do complements what, what the Seed Lab does and like, yeah, just offering different varieties. We've in general tried to, like, avoid, like, growing the same thing that they're growing, because it's like, they're this other great local, you know, small entity doing it. So, you know, go there, if you want this tomato, we've got some new different tomatoes over here. So yeah, I think I think it was just like within a year before the pandemic, so like that Hawaii Seed Growers Network, like launched our website and started being commercial. So that has not been for very long.

Jim: 21:39

It sounds like you were one of the founding members, if you will. That's a fair statement? Okay. Yeah. Okay, great. That's that's helpful. And I know you've talked. Actually seeds, it's an interesting thing, because I think, according to the reports, seeds is the number one ag industry in the islands. Is that right? Yep. Although it's probably not due to you guys. Right. But yeah, so it certainly...

Jay Bost: 22:03

No, but I mean, I think that's, you know, one thing I always, you know, kind of, you know, think about and like I was mentioning that we've had some growers grow things out for, you know, mainland, small, independent seed companies. There were a couple of winters where there's a guy who's a small independent breeder in Virginia would send stuff out and be like, "Alright, like, just grow this cucumber seed for me?" or "Can you cross this one with this one?" And, you know, that's like, that's a huge part of the Hawaii, the seed industry on Hawaii is basically being like a winter nursery for these, like, big, you know, humungus seed companies on the mainland, and like, they're sending their seed and doing that in Hawaii for a reason. And so, yeah, I mean, there's like, it's like an opportunity for that kind of have this parallel track where it's, you know, it's kind of like a different seed system, really these like smaller independent, largely organic seed companies. You know, sometimes they need things grown out, or are folks doing breeding. So yeah, just always trying to figure out for yeah folks wanting to get into agriculture, what are like all these different potential? Yeah, niches are just kind of yeah tools in our toolbox that people can have to kind of cobble together how to make make a living at it. Because just just growing produce is difficult. Sometimes it gets boring. Sometimes it's hard to make a living at that, depending on how much land you've got. So yeah, just trying to give people different, different options.

Jim: 24:02

Do you have connections with any of the big seed growers on the islands or are they different worlds?

Jay Bost: 24:08

Pretty much different worlds, you know, like our GoFarm's North Shore program is on what was Pioneer and I think now technically Cortiva land, so I mean, there's that connection and just knowing some of like the land managers up there. But but other than that, I no, I've really kind of different worlds, which in a way I feel like it's kind of is kind of too bad that they're so separate, and I think maybe it was the I don't remember if we were recording or before but I had was doing this course at UC Davis, the Plant Breeding Academy, and there were a few people there that are like, you know, one guys up at UC Davis, corn breeder. One woman's at University of Illinois now, but it used to be like at Monsanto. And they're another guy who was at Monsanto forever. And they're like, "Oh yeah, like Maui, Molokai" like they've spent like, time in Hawaii and to them, it's just like, this place to go grow corn in the winter and like, kind of have a vacation while you're doing it. And I mean, yeah, I'm like, "Well, like, hey guys, like that's like, where people also like live and like, need to eat. Like, how about about thinking about like, the local food system?" But sometimes I think that, I mean, although I get many of the objections that people and problems that people in Hawaii have with the presence of the large seed companies, they also have a lot of the land, have tons of resources, tons of pieces, and knowledge. And at least on Oahu, I mean, for me, it's been this kind of hilarious thing to kind of watch happen and come to the realization of, because like, we have our program that's on Pioneer land. And now two farms, what, really like three at this point that are kind of like, in the GoFarm orbit are now leasing land, from Cortiva. And like stable water supply, just like all being very, very supportive, and supportive. And I'm like, Okay, so it's like the supposed enemies of like, local agriculture, these like private huge seed companies are actually the ones who at the end of the day are like, coming through and like stepping up and supporting, supporting new farmers. And there's some guys on from GoFarm in on Kauai that are growing in some, like greenhouses that weren't screenhouses that weren't being used over on the west side. And then, you know, like HDOA and KS and these other like big land owners, you know, I think they try and they say that they want to like support new folks. Just there's like all this bureaucracy and slow movingness and gumming up and yeah. I just crack up sometimes I'm like, wow, like the most nimble and able to just really be supportive are these like big bad enemy seed companies.

Jim: 27:30

Nice. That's a nice perspective to hear. Because, I mean, I suppose if they're doing GMOs that might take us this conversations in a very different direction. But yeah, it sounds like most of them are organic, and, and sound like they're friendly to and supportive of the work that GoFarm and folks like you are doing.

Jay Bost: 27:48

And I think this the seed companies are, some of them are doing GMO, or at least they're just maintaining, I mean, they just do it. they're like, they're, just like subsidiaries of them in there, like grow this out. And sometimes maybe that corn is genetically modified and sometimes it's sometimes not. It's just like an inbred line that was used to make like a non GMO yeah, hybrid for corn. But yes, it's especially with in the case of the folks with Pioneer have just been super supportive. And yeah, in general, trying to do good land management. They did a lot of really early, innovative, kind of exploratory work on figuring out what cover crops would work well in Hawaii. So yeah, I think that I think it's to one's detriment to like divide into camps in and like, more gonna be like, "They're bad." And the big, you know, the big guys are like, "Oh, these small guys are never gonna feed any like, people like that." and just, like write each other off, I think. Yeah, just, yeah, just, then there's no like dialogue. And there are, you know, there's definitely disagreement and tension, but there's also good, good potentials for collaboration too. And, you know, it brings up the fact that there's like, not much agriculture really, in Hawaii and like land is being lost. And in that sense, like, we're all on the same team of trying to like, preserve access to ag land and keep it from getting developed. And make sure some of the water you know, can still be used for ag and not just all go to golf courses and development. So get to like self-divide and get conquered. Probably not the way.

Jim: 29:44

It would be nice if we could partner up and yeah, make it better for everybody. But let's talk a little bit about GoFarm. And, as a segue, I believe that there's this seed called Jay's tomatoes that is, is used extensively

Jay Bost: 30:02

Yeah, I mean, actually, I have to admit, that's not named after me. And I, when I see that on the list, sometimes I'm like, I'm like,"Why are they calling it that? Like the one I was growing, it's called GoFarm Gold." Um, but yeah, Jay, I think is like a friend of Evan, who's a grower on on Maui. So yeah, I'm not the Jay behind that behind that tomato.

Jim: 30:27

Are you the GoFarm Gold guy?

Jay Bost: 30:30

Yeah, I mean, really, you know, me and like, probably seven or eight cohorts of GoFarmers. Like the way that that happened was was actually pretty cool. Like, I think I mentioned earlier, tomato yellow leaf curl virus. And that was pretty new when we were kind of getting going in Waimanalo. And it was prevalent that virus in Waimanalo. And at that point, that was kind of before GoFarm had really embraced screen houses. And folks like Khun Hui Wang and Jerry Sugano had done a bunch of great work on and just like figuring out kind of DIY ways to do screen houses. So now we've now and then the fruit fly, pressure has seemingly increased over time in Waimanalo. So basically, everybody's trying to grow tomatoes inside screenhouse is at this point. So yeah, basically, you know, at that time, the only cherry tomato I could find with tomato yellow leaf curl virus resistance was this variety Merlot that we got from High Mowing Seed and we grew it out and it did great. We probably grew it for a couple couple years. And then yeah, one year we're like, oh, like,"Let's save seed from it." And so we grew that out, and the next generation looked pretty much like the first generation, and we're like, "Oh, that's weird. Supposedly, this was like a hybrid." And then we saved seeds again. And then that following generation, there were some that like, popped out and were like, kind of orange and like more a little bit, a little bit more round shaped. I'm like,"oh, that's cool." So then we started saving seed of those, and we started saving seeds of the red ones separately. And then yeah, basically, every cohort would just be like, alright, like, here's one of the varieties that you're going to grow. And then towards the end of the cohort would just save the seeds from the best looking plants and then probably went through like seven, eight generations of that just saving the ones that look the best. And I think every once in a while still I'll be like some red ones, like pop out in folks. Orange ones, but yeah, it's cool. Then people like go on into Incubator and they can grow whatever they want. But a lot of people like yeah, choose to keep to keep growing that and it's got got really nice flavor. Yeah, and so to me, that's like a fun example of yeah, just trying to basically breed something breed something new. Whether it's something like that, where you take a hybrid and then just let it start segregating and saving, saving stuff from it, or whether you like intentionally cross some two varieties and make something new, or you know, a lot of times it's just fun. Things happen by accident where you didn't mean two do things to cross and they do you know. That's, that's, that's hard if you're, if that's your your cash crop sometimes, if things are all over the place, and some are doing yielding well, and some don't look great. But yeah, that that was a super fun project. And then yeah, once it was doing pretty good, it was fun to then send it to other sites. And then, you know, at this point, hopefully, different sites have kept it going on long enough that it's kind of drifted a little bit now there's like the Big Island strain and the Kauai strain and the and the Waimanalo strain. So yeah,

Jim: 34:43

I think seed growers, to qualify and be part of that program, you have to get through is it three generations of seed?

Jay Bost: 34:50

Yeah, that's kind of the kind of like rule of thumb that we've had is yeah, to try to be making like, selections yeah in Hawaii, for at least three generations and most of the stuff is is longer. But yeah, not just being like, "Oh, let's like buy..." I don't know. I mean, sometimes there's like intellectual property issues like I was, for some reason it came to mind like Prospera basil, which is like a good basil with downy mildew resistance. Like there's some like intellectual property issues there. Like we shouldn't be like saving see to that and then selling it. But yeah, not just buying like Skyphos lettuce from Johnny's, growing it one season, and then harvesting the seed and then selling it. Because, you know, part of the idea with Hawaii Seed Growers Network is that stuff's been, yeah, kind of grown long enough and selected that it's, you know, adapted to, heat, dealt with pests and diseases. So, yeah, we try to, yeah, have stuff that's been around for a while and had some time to really become Hawaiian.

Jim: 35:58

And from what we've heard from you, as well as others, is that it's kind of a critical skill set for developing breeds and maintaining breeds that are resistant to what we encounter here in Hawaii that's so unique compared to the rest of the United States. And then then also, you know, sustainability, food security, those those topics, too, right?

Jay Bost: 36:23

Yeah. Yeah, there's just so fun to see all the different varieties. And yeah, when you're in someplace new or it's a new season, it's always kind of fun. Like you don't know what's going to be the best or how things you're going to do. So try um out.

Jim: 36:40

Nice. Can you talk a little bit about your connection with GoFarm? Was, were you also involved in kind of the initial planning and yeah, launch of that?

Jay Bost: 36:50

Yeah. So I was at that time, um in the grad in a graduate program at CTAHR. And so it was on the research station in Waimanalo, doing a lot of stuff with with Jim Brubaker. And then was doing some sweet potato research with, with Ted Radovich. And I think GoFarm had just started, probably, like, while I was there. And I think the way that it first started out as there was like the agribusiness incubator program, which is based on campus in Manoa, and their job was, and there still is a business team that with GoFarm, now that, their job was to basically provide like, business planning, kind of marketing and financial support to new and existing food entrepreneurs and farmers. And they kept getting people calling them and saying, like, oh, like,"Can you help us, we want to learn how to farm?" and they're like, like, "We're all like bankers with clean nails. Like, we can't tell you how to farm. And you could go to, you know, you could go get a degree at CTAHR, but you're not going to really learn how to farm. There, you're gonna learn like about farming, and you're gonna learn about like, you're not gonna, like learn, like the actual just like nitty gritty of how to farm." And so Stephen Chang, who was the Director at that point, got together with Dave Ringette, who was a teacher that at that time at Winard, Community College, and they kind of pulled this team together, that was basically all community colleges, and they applied for the Deparement of Labor grant that was like workforce training. And so I think in that early phase, it was really all at community colleges. And the idea was like, okay, people could come in and some of that funding went to like alternative energy. So it's like to train people working like solar. And some of that was funded the beginning of the program. And so, yeah, I came on, and it was kind of the way that GoFarm started out. It was kind of two different phases where you do like ag school, which would be like four months and then the people that were kind of like the most, most interested to kind of go on and scale up a little bit would then do AgPro. So at that time, like ag school within Windward Community College, and then AgPro was in Waimanalo at the Research Station. So one cohort kind of getting going there, but it was just kind of like, I mean, the program was so new that there wasn't really like any infrastructure. Not a lot of equipment. And so the kind of first farm coach there ended up leaving to go to graduate school on the mainland and there was a, an extension agent who kind of like finished out that first cohort. And so then they were hiring for somebody to do that to be like the coach for AgPro. And I was like, "Oh, that looks. You know, that sounds interesting to me. I've done some teaching before, I just love like, actual experientially based education" and was living in Waimanalo, and was in this graduate program, but it was kind of getting a lot more lab based than I really wanted to do. So I was like, Oh, this would be a neat opportunity. And so then I got that first cohort, and sort of kind of started working on like developing the curriculum for that. And then kind of realized, like, oh, this stuff I thought that they'd learned maybe in the first stage doesn't seem like they got all of it. And so, yeah, I think after maybe just one cohort, the guy that was teaching that earlier stage left, and so I was like, Okay, just for like, a year or two, I'll do both to try to develop this, like more. like, it was curriculum. And then all of a sudden, it was like, 10 cohorts later. And I think part of what was so fun about it is we're just constantly constantly evolving the curriculum as new research at CTAHR would give us new information or extension of new info or Yeah, I mean, I was definitely guilty of like, coming from probably a more academic. I mean, I was trying to balance academic and practical, but you know, I think there's some stuff I was throwing at people, they're just like, "Are you kidding? I'm not gonna read this!" But you know, I think that's, that was kind of my style, just like throw stuff at people and the people that want to read it all can and people that, you know, aren't interested didn't didn't have to. Yeah, and then it was fun to kind of figure out like the just kind of, like human psychology of like, creating space for people that kind of able to some kind of need to like, step up to the plate. And yeah, like support people, baiting them, because certainly, once you like, get out on your own and start your own farm, like nobody's there, baiting you. So that was fun. And, you know, we started out, I think, early on, we ended up, I think, at one point, we had, like, some people, you know, were like, couples or people had teamed up, but we had like 20 incubators in Waimanalo. And we're like,"Yeah, we're building this, like, huge army." But, you know, it's like, half the people weren't, you know, just didn't have the time to balance the rest of their lives. So they weren't there. And it was hard on equipment. You know, it was just, it was a great idea, but we ended up then kind of having to, like, tighten things up a little bit in the program smaller, and for the people that really have the, the time and the motivation to like, really take advantage of the of the opportunity that they were giving. And, and I think one thing I always kind of wrestled with, I think we all wrestle with it GoFarm was like, there should be more of basically like, community garden sort of opportunities for people. And I think that's what some came to the program basically yearning for and looking for as basically just like a supportive place to go and be able to like garden and bring their kids and grow some food for themselves. And if they sold a little bit great, but it's not like they're trying to be entrepreneurs. And while we all like think that that's great that's not like what our mandate was, and that's not what our funding was about. So yeah, and to really make it so it was the people that are serious and trying to make a living at it, like aren't getting slowed down by people breaking equipment who aren't serious.

Jim: 44:25

And is that how the master, Master Gardner

Jay Bost: 44:28

Yeah the Master Gardner, is program I think is there to serve that purpose. And I feel like yeah, even trying to create some kind of hybrid between GoFarm and the Master Gardeners would be would be good.

Jim: 44:44

Yeah, and I imagine one of the toughest parts of that job for for you or anyone that's trying to start a new cohort is you have a bunch of people show up that say they're going to be interested but how How do you? How do you vet them? Right? How do you weed out? If I'll use another pun, how do you weed out the ones hat shouldn't be there? So what's what's that process like? I mean, how do you decide who's going to make it and who's not? Or who who to choose and who not to?

Jay Bost: 45:15

Yeah, I mean, I was just talking to with, with Rachel, who was like my successor in Waimanalo about, you know, you go through AgXposure, that kind of first that first, and it's kind of morphed over the years. But yeah, these kind of first four weekends, work days. And that first selection is our you know, and when the program was young, it was kind of like, it was so young, we're just kind of like looking for warm, warm bodies, like who's showing, like, who's showing up and then especially on Oahu, and I think this is starting to happen on on other islands as well. But yeah, I mean, towards the end, there was like, way more demand than there was space, so we kind of got a little more picky and choosey and I think we were all kind of amazed, like, all right, like, at some point, we're gonna, like, run out of clients, out of people that are interested, like, they all will have, like, found the program and gone through it. But it was like the opposite. Like people just kept coming out of the woodwork. And so like, yeah, the initial thing is mostly just people are kind of like, writing kind of expressing their interests. And one of the main things is that interested in like, they're wanting to, like, grow and sell food, not just do it for like, themselves. Although, again, like, we think that's great and important that's not what our mission was. And then, I mean,

Jim: 46:54

Good news, bad news, right? It's, is the word got out, and folks really want to be part of it but you then have to decide who's who's going to make the cut.

Jay Bost: 47:04

Yeah. Yeah. And then I think, you know, as the program has, like, evolved, the great thing now that is, I feel like its base basically created this, like, huge support network. Like in social network, so I think, you know, if it's not like a shoo in, but it's like, if if you come and you it's like you heard about from somebody that went through the program, and they did really well. And they kind of can kind of vouch for you. You know, that's great. And then it's great for people to be going through the program and then be able to, like, instantly tap into this like whole network of like, oh, Well, you're gonna go farm in this area? Well, that's where like, like, I don't know, do you know Brett, who lives near you? I think Brett ended up in Laupahoehoe. Yeah, just being able to, "Oh, this guy, Rob started FarmLink that you could sell there. This guy started this restaurant, or this gal is doing this value added thing." Like, as it's, you know, as we've had more and more graduates, it's just kind of created this, you know, intant network. And I think we've had two in person, and then COVID happened. I don't know what the plans are for another, like alumni gathering where we try to get get people together. And I feel like that was most useful for folks on Oahu, but it would be great to do those, you know, on each island. It gets kind of costly to bring, like everybody together from every island in one in one place. But yeah, just I think a really great network is developed. And then also I think, as it's developed, you know, lenders, vendors, extension agents, you know, everybody's like, Oh, like, what, you know, and they, as they have more positive experiences with the GoFarm program, and people that have gone through it, it just kind of like up the road for the later people. Because people have heard of it and had good experiences.

Jim: 49:17

Yeah, no, definitely. And, and I understand there's lots of ongoing communication and support from GoFarm even after you've graduated. Yeah. So I think that's it's really a top notch program that that I know is well respected throughout the islands by folks that are trying to get started. The SOW project, the Seeds of Wellbeing project its mission is to help address stressors that ag producers, farmers, ranchers, and those that are in that in the industry and helping support ag producers for that matter, trying to reduce the stress. It's a tough job. It's it's recognized as such by on a wide basis now so just wondering from your perspective, you've you've, you've touched so many pieces of, of the ag industry in Hawaii for so many years, I just what do you think are ways that that folks can address you know, we as CTAHR, perhaps, or ways in general, others can can help address those stressors and help ag producers reduce their stress and be more more successful?

Jay Bost: 50:25

Yeah, I think, you know, one thing I, I have thought a lot about is, and we've talked about is, and I don't know if I don't know if CTAHR is the right institution to do this, but you know, with collaboration of of extension, and GoFarm, and whether it's the State, or if it's KS, but basically try to create these things kind of like post incubator, post incubator, farming parks, and I know that the Department of Agriculture, kind of on paper has some of these ag parks. I don't know. I mean, I haven't seen them all but my sense is they aren't functioning as well as they necessarily could. But I feel like there were places where folks could go and farm. There was hooking into, you know, there were kind of these, like shared facilities for wash, packing and storage. And then tapping into these kind of distribution network kind of things, you know, not just FarmLink but things like that. So that each individual farmer is not trying to, like capitalize and get all this, you know, equipment that any farm needs, but like how can some of that be pooled together? A place where there's people around all the time, so that maybe they're, you know, just sort of some de facto security and support. You know, sometimes farming can be really lonely, if you're just like out all by yourself. So yeah, I think trying to figure out some kind of more yeah, these kind of like ag parks. Not even including housing, but including housing would be even more incredible. Um, I think that would be something great for folks. And I think, you know, maybe another thing to think about, and that could be within that context, or working with these kind of different folks that are doing aggregation. Trying to like help farmers kind of coordinate and be like, Okay, you grow this crop these months, and then you grow them these months, so that people can take some downtime. You know, on the one hand, Hawaii is great in that you can grow like 365 days a year, but it's trying to figure out how to help people figure out how to get I think some downtime would be great. I don't know if it's like HDOA or who would do this. If the state was able to figure out some kind of way for somebody to help farmers with like health insurance I feel like it'd be pretty pretty amazing. Yeah, I think I think you know, those sorts of things and then like zoning or trying to figure out areas where we can figure out some way to make have ag land well cared for and affordable for people that want to farm. And just feel like in a lot of places, it's not affordable no matter what, and then even sometimes, like on Oahu it's like it's not affordable, and it's been like like a blind eye like dump for like 10 years. And so it's like you buy this like enormously expensive amount of land, and then the first thing you do is like, pull like, container loads of like trash off of it. And then I I don't know how, I mean I think it's a problem everywhere that like the security issue, and I don't know if there's any easy answers to that other than trying to figure out some balance how people can live on the land that they're farming. But I mean, there's nothing more depressing than like, you know, with finesse like dodging bad weather dodging the pests, getting around diseases, and when, yeah, everything and then you're like about ready to harvest it and then somebody just comes in like steals it. It's just like,"Oh my god, are you kidding?"

Jim: 55:13

I just I heard someone else we interviewed mentioned ag parks too. And I understand there are, that DOA has has set up some ag parks, it looks like Hamakua, Keahole, et cetera and Molokai. As you know, I see I see 8 or 10 listed, but, you know, are there some that are? I mean, it seems like it may be able to address a number of the things you talked about. Yeah. So theoretically, if we had enough land with which would allow housing, I mean, it could even be a tiny house, right, if if zoning were allowed for that, I know that zoning has been modified to allow some things like that in certain circumstances. And it seems so that the farmer, the ag producer can actually get up in the morning and with their coffee, they can immediately go out and just kind of how things are right and don't have to deal with the commute and the gas prices and right. So there's a big enough ag park with enough land. Because that addresses some of the land issues, addresses some of security issues, that they're actually be stewarding the land in that area for a while. So I mean, I feel

Jay Bost: 56:23

I mean, I think that would be the dream. And then you know, then 20 years later somebody comes and if lands been like, well cared for, it's like the soil, there's more organic matter. There's some infrastructure. It's like, yeah, I don't really understand what the disconnect is but it kind of seems like the opposite case often ends up happening where it's like, the users aren't stewarding it. and it's like the like the land gets, like left in like a worse situation, like a worse state than it was when it was taken on.

Jim: 57:05

We think Jay, for his perspective on the Hawaii seed industry, the benefits of local seed production, and for sharing some details about the beginnings and evolution of GoFarm and seed production in Hawaii,. We have links in the show notes, if you want to find out more about the topics discussed, and if perhaps you want to become more involved with the Hawaii growers network, either as a producer or consumer to help grow and use local seeds for local needs.

Jay Bost: 57:30

I think part of the benefit of having gone through GoFarm Is is being like acclimated to and educated to working in this kind of communal environment and sharing equipment and, you know, having like, at least some basis of being able to communicate and function and and community. And understand that there's rules and if you break them, like you're gonna get get kicked out. It just seems like in some of the some cases, and I yeah, I feel like this seems like this happens in ways and why there's like rules, but nobody enforces them. So it's like, whoa, then people's break 'em. And once you realize you can break them, there's no consequence. It's like, All right, Well, follow'em.

Jim: 58:20

Yeah, I think maybe it's a topic for another podcast about the ag parks. And it feels like, you know, just from a few different conversations with folks that have been involved for a number of years in a variety of ways that could be key if it were done in certain ways that it caused it to be supportive and allowed housing. And maybe hey, maybe they can even provide health insurance. Yeah. Anyway, I've taken up a lot of your time. So I wan to let you go. You have some corn to plant.

Jay Bost: 58:54

We got it. Yeah. Good luck with the project. And look, I look forward to listening to you talk with other folks.

Jim: 59:06

The intention of this podcast series is to create a safe space for respectful and inclusive dialogue with people from across a broad and diverse spectrum involved in growing and making accessible the food we share together. The diversity of voices, perspectives and experiences can serve to deepen mutual understanding, to spark creative problem solving, and provide insight into the complexities of our agricultural system. If you our listeners have experiences with Hawaii agricultural ecosystems, from small holder farms to large even including multinational agricultural industrial companies, or anywhere in between, and you would like to share your story, please contact us. We welcome your voices and perspectives.