In this episode we speak with Kaʻeo Duarte and Marissa Harman from Kamehameha Schools and Bishop Estate (KS). They talk about the 135 year history of KS, and its strategic vision, but we focus on how they manage the approximately 88,000 acres deemed to be “high value ag land” in their portfolio. We also share how an ag producer can apply for KS land leases and talk about all those eucalyptus trees planted on KS land along the Hamakua Coast on the Big Island.
Brought to you by University of Hawaii College of Tropical Ag. and Human Resources (CTAHR), and the Seeds of Well-being (SOW) Project. This podcast is supported by the Farm and Ranch Stress Assistance Network (FRSAN) grant from the U.S. Department of Agriculture, National Institute of Food and Agriculture and Hawaii Department of Agriculture.
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In this episode we speak with Kaʻeo Duarte and Marissa Harman from Kamehameha Schools and Bishop Estate (KS). They talk about the 135 year history of KS, and its strategic vision, but we focus on how they manage the approximately 88,000 acres deemed to be “high value ag land” in their portfolio. We also share how an ag producer can apply for KS land leases and talk about all those eucalyptus trees planted on KS land along the Hamakua Coast on the Big Island.
Brought to you by University of Hawaii College of Tropical Ag. and Human Resources (CTAHR), and the Seeds of Well-being (SOW) Project. This podcast is supported by the Farm and Ranch Stress Assistance Network (FRSAN) grant from the U.S. Department of Agriculture, National Institute of Food and Agriculture and Hawaii Department of Agriculture.
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The views information or opinions expressed in this episode are solely those of individuals involved and do not necessarily represent those of the University of Hawaii College of Tropical Agriculture and Human Resources, our funders, or any of the organizations affiliated with this project Welcome to a Seeds of Wellbeing"Experts in the Field" podcast featuring people working in their fields of expertise to provide support for agriculture producers in Hawaii, in the United States and in some cases around the world. These podcasts were made possible by a grant from the University of Hawaii College of Tropical Agriculture and Human Resources also known as CTAHR. And the Seeds of Wellbeing or SOW project and is supported by a grant from the US Department of Agriculture, National Institute of Food and Agriculture, and the Hawaii Department of Agriculture.
Kaʻeo Duarte:Aloha, Iʻm Kaʻeo Duarte. I am the Vice President of Community and Aina Resiliency for Kamehameha schools. The team that in a nutshell oversees all of our non commercial lands and real estate resources in/on five islands.
Jim:Thank you, and Marissa?
Marissa Harman:Sure. Aloha. My name is Marissa Harmon, I'm the Director of Asset Management in Community and Aina Resiliency overseeing all that agriculture and conservation land statewide.
Jim:In this episode, we speak with Kaʻeo Duarte and Marissa Harmon from Kamehameha Schools and Bishop Estates. They talk about the 135 year history of KS and its strategic vision. But we focus on how they manage the approximately 88,000 acres deemed to be high value ag land that's in their portfolio. We also share how an ag producer can apply for KS land leases and talk about all those eucalyptus trees planted on KS land along the Hamakua coast on the Big Island. So let's hear more from Marissa and Kaʻeo. Perhaps for folks that aren't familiar with the history or might want to hear it from you folks directly, is, would you mind sharing a little bit about the history of Kamehameha Schools, Bishop Estates, you know what the connection is? Those those pieces just as an initial background?
Marissa Harman:Sure, I'll take a stab at that. So as you mentioned, most people in Hawaii are familiar with Kamehameha Schools, but for those who aren't, we were established by Princess Pauahi, the last descendant of the Kamehameha line. She had no children or heirs herself. And it's during her lifetime, she really saw the decimation of the native Hawaiian population with the introduction of Western disease. And it declined about 65% the native Hawaiian population during her lifetime, and so she really saw education as the key tool to the future of Native Hawaiians thriving and continuing on. So she passed in 1884 and via her will, the schools were established in 1887. So this year, we're celebrating our 135th anniversary. And so, you know, with, I guess the loss of life amongst a lot of the alii at the time, who really also lost some of their heirs to disease, a lot of the lands were passed to Pauahi from her various chiefly family members. And so at the time of her death, her estate was about 375,000 acres. And she really directed that her property would be used to fund her educational mission. And so in carrying out her will, the leasing of our lands is one way that we continue to fund that educational mission. And today, our current strategic vision for the year 2040 - it's a 15 year strategic plan, strategic vision is - I'm sorry, it's a 25 year, we did this in 2015 - is to see a thriving lāhui where our learners and you know, Pahahi's students that she envisioned all those years ago, are having success in life in community and have good choices ahead of them. So that's really our focus right now is is it thriving lāhui.
Jim:That's great. Thank you. And now just for clarification, Bishop estates? How does that tie into Kamehameha Schools and is what's the delineation of that? Would you mind sharing?
Kaʻeo Duarte:Yeah, I think for much of the early years, the Bishop Estate was sort of the the trust or the endowment end and Kamehameha Schools was the physical school I what, which I what with a lot of the history was one school on the Hill in Kapalama. And we're, you know, sort of the business end of the organization and the school end of the organization. But in late 90s, into the 2000s we made an important pivot, both in form and function that you know we really need to be a united organization and that our lands and are, the resources that the Trust and the endowment has are part and parcel to our larger mission for wellbeing of our native Hawaiian people in tying into our education mission. So the Trustees made an important decision that, that we really need to be one organization. And so part of that was was was moving towards you know one name, one organization in like the 2000s. So at this point, it really is Kamehameha Schools. Okay, that's great. So yeah, I realize that's a journey. I think in some communities and so forth, kind of the monikers are still Bishop Estate and Kamehameha Schools, but over time, we think they'll, weʻll work through that.
Jim:Okay, that's, that's helpful. Thank you, because you hear both names, both terms, and so that's helpful to help cut to the chase right, of the relationships. And now we know we can just say Kamehameha Schools, yeah? And is it disrespectful to call it KS? Or, or is that for the sake of our conversation is it? I don't want to disrespect at all but I feel like it is a little bit to call it KS, but what, you tell me?
Kaʻeo Duarte:I think it's okay. I think it's worse to say Kam Schools, I think Kam Schools is, has more sensitivity than saying KS. So yeah, I think we're okay with with KS is abbreviation for Kamehameha Schools.
Jim:Right. Yes. So I think, I mean as I understand it, I don't know if this is still the case, but I think at a certain point, was Kamehameha and Bishop Estates was that the largest, one of the largest, wealthiest trusts in in the country? Is that true?
Kaʻeo Duarte:So you mean from a dollar standpoint?
Jim:Yeah, I think probably from assets and value of the estate, I believe I heard at one point, and maybe thatʻs not true
Kaʻeo Duarte:I havenʻt checked recently, but there was a, there is a list online of the largest philanthropic trusts in the nation or in the, you know, on the globe. And I think a decade or so ago, KS was one of the top 10. So Kamehameha Schools was was one of the top 10 philanthropic trusts in the nation, if not the world, I believe since then, with billionaires and mul and and multi billionaires becoming much more common, I don't believe we are in the top 10 anymore, that there are a lot larger trust now. But we, we are among you know that that group, I guess, of philanthropic educational trusts, and definitely one of the largest, native or indigenous. And definitely one of the oldest on the list for sure. Many of the larger trusts are much younger. So probably one of the oldest and only indigenous trusts of kind of this size from a dollar standpoint.
Jim:And I would imagine a lot of that is just land assets and the value of land has increased so dramatically, is where that value comes from, but...
Kaʻeo Duarte:Not really, actually. I mean, that is a part of it. So for much of our history, we were land rich and cash poor. So probably for a good two thirds or three quarters of our 135 year history now we were land rich, cash poor, and you even sold land. Sorry, the lands were bigger and you're actually paying for resold lands literally to make payroll for our teachers on campuses. But you know, over time, kind of starting in the 70s, and 80s, and so forth, as through some transactions of our residential lands on Oahu and so forth, and some smart investments by leadership, we have over time become more well endowed, tied to more financial investments. So for much of the history, yes, the real estate was a primary and activities on our real estate lands were the primary source of funds. But as it stands today, well I mean, please don't quote me on the exact numbers, but actually our Hawaii real estate is maybe a third of the value of, of KS's endowment, while our financial investments team, if we invest nationally and globally are probably two thirds. So the the, it has swung from a time when the real estate was the was the majority of the value of the endowment to now that our investments nationally and globally are a larger portion of our endowment and our and our real estate is about 1/3 of the value.
Jim:Interesting. Thank you.
Kaʻeo Duarte:I think one important point before we dive into ag too, is it just to paint a context right or I think for for us as a as a whole team managing ‘Āina Pauahi which is something what we refer to our Hawaii real estate portfolio as, Hawaiiʻs ʻaina. And then ‘Āina Pauahi team of both the team that Marissa and I are on, that manage the ag land, we also have our colleagues on our commercial side who manages all of our commercial real estate. To much smaller acreage, but extremely high value real estate. That's important to realize that we have for us we're aspiring to, as a long term institution, manage a really diverse, manage Pauahi's lands as a diverse portfolio of diverse kinds of assets and resources and value streams, both financial value and other non financial values for Hawaii and our community. So agriculture is a piece of that, but within our commercial side, residential, recreation, resort, retail, industrial, some of these many different sub components of our real estate. Forestry and timber, renewable energy, natural and cultural resources, water resources, indigenous knowledge bases for learning and aina based education. So when we think of our ‘Āina Pauahi portfolio, we are we really are trying to look as you zoom out at a large, diverse portfolio, how do we position it to, yes, you know, create a good, good portfolio returns financially, but also to have good positive impacts on jobs, careers in a variety of industries that are important for both Native Hawaiians and Hawaii, and agriculture as a subset of this larger portfolio, which I believe is what the top topic of today's conversation is. But just important to know that it sits within a much larger portfolio and seller strategies.
Jim:Absolutely lots of audiences to try to give attention to and make sure are heard, it sounds like. And so of the land assets that are managed in your portfolio, do you have a sense of what percentage are ag, for example, versus the other types of of land management that you do?
Marissa Harman:So in terms of acreage, we're roughly at about close to 50% in conservation of our acreage, 48-ish percent around agriculture. And then the remaining 2% is in that urban rural kind of other classification. So the majority of our lands are in agriculture and conservation.
Jim:How was it decided that those would be agriculture and set aside for agriculture versus conservation, for example? Yeah, and how was that decided that it was high value?
Marissa Harman:Sure, and actually, I should have prefaced that based on state land use classification. So the state land use districts of conservation ag, rural and urban. So that's, that's how we're categorizing them. It's not necessarily a classification that Kamehameha has placed on those lands. So over ag portfolio if weʻre looking roughly at that, you know, 48-50% mark, right, we're around 175,000 acres. To Kaʻeo's point, you know, maybe about 12-13 years ago, we looked at what acreage is actually high value, agricultural land. Because as we know, when the state land use classifications were done, you know, somewhat broad strokes in some areas. And so, initially, we looked at maybe 88,000 of those acres were a high value agriculture, but the reality is today, we lease out under lease with farmers and ranchers, we have almost 78,000 of those acres under lease with about 900 farmers and ranchers statewide. So the amount of our highly usable ag land is pretty close to being in use and under contract for the most part. That some of an exercise we did internally, looking at soil types, looking at rainfall, looking at availability of infrastructure. In many of our lands, also, you know, have less infrastructure than folks would think, right? So some of those ag lands that are not in use, you know, roughly that 10,000 acres or so, accessibility is not as good as some other locations, may only be rain-fed. You know, those are some of the conditions that prevent us from leasing out some of those other lands as we get to a point of being able to really focus on what's vacant and how we can continue to to get those lands stewarded by farmers and ranchers.
Jim:I think that is an important and valuable distinction though because there are state maps, you can go to that, that you can drill down, and they tell you what the land type of soil is. And, you know, and some of those types of things can be found online. But I think it sounds like you folks have gone the extra step and really gone on site and looked at the properties and know, know what's available and access and rainfall and you know, those types of things. You really did all the work to, as if, you know, an ag producer were to go there and determine if it was going to be usable and functional for their needs. So that's, that seems like it's a tremendous value.
Kaʻeo Duarte:And maybe to add to Marissa to your, I think also included in your question was, from the larger portfolio of State ag zoned land, how did we get down to the 88,000. I kind of mentioned it, but just to be kind of a little bit more crystal clear. In areas, especially here in Kona where I'm sitting, in mauka Kona, they zoned a lot of land up in the mountains, when the ranches were very extensive, all the way up into the areas where there's a lot of native forests, and we made the decision that there are some land zoned agriculture, that as a native Hawaiian institution, we don't think agriculture is the right use for those lands up in the really far mauka region. So we made the decision too. We manage those lands more for stewardship of native species and cultural and natural landscapes. So that that's where we kind of went from the State zoning classification, we took out land there are we want to steward for sensitive species, native species, cultural landscapes. And then we got down to the 88,000. And that's the land we're focused on to, to put into production for a variety of diverse set of agricultural uses. Does that help?
Marissa Harman:To add a little bit to that cut, all those lands, like in puʻu Kona area, still contribute to agriculture, even though we're stewarding them for natural resources, and the contribution they make to our watersheds. So still part of the bigger picture for sure.
Kaʻeo Duarte:Yes,
Jim:Absolutely. That's, yes that's helpful. And it's certainly much more complex than I originally thought, as I hear you describe it. So it's also helpful to understand the complexity of what you do and how you do it. I think one of the things I mentioned before is we've spoken to many ag producers, and they're interested in Kamehameha lands. And I mean, with all respect, I'll I'll say that some folks have said that, you know, as we just kind of lead up to this, you know, "Kamehameha has all the money, they have all the land, why aren't the helping ag producers more by giving inexpensive plots of land to as many ag producers as need to?" So, I mean, again, things are complex. And that's one of the, if we, if we've learned nothing else, not only from this conversation, but from the Seeds of Wellbeing project is there are no simple answers. So I just thought I'd put that out there just, again, with respect to just get a sense of your response to that.
Kaʻeo Duarte:You know, I'll start and let Marissa fill in, expecially when Marissa is closer to the detail the numbers that I am, I'll let her. But maybe I'll start at a high level. Well no, I think that's a great question and a valid question. And I can tell you that our team thinks hard about that question of how do we make agriculture a viable, not just a viable but a thriving industry? Both our lands are productive? And yes, as Hawaiians you say momona or fat and productive lands. Yes, financially, but again, non financially. And for part, we believe it also ties to our our mission as an organization and wellbeing of native Hawaiian children, weʻre gonna be inherently tied to the wellbeing of the lands and the communities they live. So I think it's a it's a, it's a great question and it's something that we challenge ourselves with day in and day out of how do we do our best on our watch? Maybe I'll start at a high level that, try and get through this quickly, that you know if you really look through the history of Kamehameha Schools lands, but all lands in Hawaii, I think there's some big overarching themes that that both us the State and other land, small, medium and large, are wrestling with and dealing with to make agriculture a thriving industry in Hawaii. It's, you know preimplantation there are traditional ag systems, which in many cases, interestingly, we're exactly in the opposite places where. You know, our our kupuna were in the valleys, the stream valleys, along waterways and so forth. And when the plantations came, you know, in places their agriculture moved to plateaus, and places away from our water bodies, and they took water to them. And so massive changes in just in just the landscape of agriculture. As you know, that went on for a good 75, in some places close to 100 years. And Kamehameha Schools like many others, were a part of that period where on one hand, you know, it's ironic to think about it, but at that time, sugar, pineapple agriculture was the dominant industry in Hawaii. It was to Hawaii, what tourism is it to Hawaii today. It was the it was agriculture was big business for a big period of territorial and statehood and so forth. But you could also say that, Was it feeding Hawaii? You know, so there's there is a paradox in the when agriculture was was the biggest industry in Hawaii, but doesn't necessarily look the way we want it to look. And I think as the plantation started to go bankrupt, you know, 70s, 80s, into the 90s, and lands for us as land started to come back to Kamehameha Schools, which is primarily, you know, somewhat of a passive lessor of those lands for many periods. We've been on a journey, which again, I would argue that many others are also on the same journey of transitioning 10s of 1000s of acres, that were under plantation into something else. And I would say we're still on that journey as a State. We are still in transition from, in many places, from plantation to a future agricultural vision, which is a challenge, but it's also an opportunity. It's also exciting that we're at this pivot point. It's a long pivot point was it takes time there is for us, I can speak for KS so many water issues, environmental cleanup issues, legal and boundary issues, community issues. When the plantations pulled out, they left a lot of things that had to be dealt with, before we're even ready to do agriculture. Even ready to move forward with new things. But that's been a journey that's been a big part of, of the team's work. Both our team and those before us. Places where plantations didn't work early on, like Kona where sugar just didn't quite work here. At Kamehameha Schools it's interesting, you read in our archives we're with UH we were doing research on alternative crops. Like how do we make these, they're asking questions similar to us, but a different time. "Okay, what do we do with these lands? How do we make them productive? How do we make economically and so forth?" And they sent delegations to research coffee, and cacao, and all of these these topics in the 60s and 70s, which led to a Kona coffee belt in Kona. So that's an example of a previous generation of Kamehameha Schools land managers were trying to figure out how to make these lands productive. But you know fast forward again to the 80s and 90s was not very long ago, so many of our lands, we are you know, we have been working on on roads and infrastructure. We've spent millions of dollars on roads, water systems, fencing, boundary issues, and so forth, since the early 2000s 'til now to get lands of ready to be deployed for new kinds of agriculture. So that has been a lot of our work the last 20 years. And while there's more work to be done, we don't have it all figured out we are proud that then, as Marissa mentioned earlier, our occupancy rate is steadily going up. That we are steadily building up these former plantation lands with new farmers and ranchers. Again, in full disclosure, we want to diversify it more. As you know, CTAHR knows, finding farmers and farmer that can be successful is not easy too, so how do we as a landowner partner on the land side with our lands and Iʻll let Marissa go into the diversity of land. I think that's a key point. You know, we have, you know, the lands look very different when you're in Hilo, to Kona to Kaʻu to Kauai, to North Shore Oahu to winward Oahu, the lands are all different, the situations are different. Some places we're fully subscribed, we have a wait list. And then there's some places where you know, our farmers and especially our Native Hawaiians, yeah we want that. And then we are the area that we don't have land. And the lands were areas where we do have land available may not be where farmers want to go. So we're always trying to figure out that situation. And maybe just I'm hoping that sort of a helpful, you know, kind of big picture. And I'll let Marissa go into the numbers, but I do think it's important that, Can we do more? Absolutely. Do we have it all figured out? No. Are we working really hard? Yes. And I also want to celebrate that, like Marissa mentioned, the many hundreds and hundreds close to 1000 farmers and ranchers who are working hard every day on our land. So, like for me when people say you're not doing enough you know for ag, I mean, we are we are the largest private lessor of land, we are the largest private provider of agricultural land and have the largest, largest partnership of farmers and tenant in the state. And so, while there's always more work to be done, I don't want to, I want to honor all those farmers and ranchers, who everyday are toiling on Kamehameha Schools land, both steward the land and to produce food. So I just, I just want to call that out. And maybe Marissa can talk a little bit about the portfolio from a numbers standpoint and where we have availability of opportunity, and maybe where we have challenges. So maybe the audience could get a sense of what the portfolio looks like across the islands.
Marissa Harman:Mahalo Kaʻeo. So I think just to look back at your question that you had sent us earlier, that we have all land, all the money and why aren't we doing more? Right. So to Kaʻeo's point, I think if I can dive a little deeper on the regional perspective. Most folks know Kamehameha for what they are in the place that they live, right. And so when we're able to tell the story of what we have statewide, I think this fuller picture gets painted. Or if you go to Puna, we have mac nuts, some pasture and we have papaya in Puna. And we also have lava now. We lost about 900 acres to inundation in 2018. So that did impact some of our lands there. If you move into Hilo, we have lots of rain fed crops, we have deep soils in Hilo. So we see farmers that are planting short term vegetable crops, some flower crops. We move in to Hamakua, those lands that we purchased from the plantation in 1994. I think I'll sidestep a little bit to say, we're really proud of that decision that our leadership and trustees made to acquire kind of that last block of lands that were up for sale in the bankruptcy sale because we really feel it helped to preserve that agricultural nature of Hamakua. And really keep that open space feel, right? Other things we saw happen to lands bought up by smaller landowners was subdivision and, you know, development of gentleman estates. And so we're really proud of the fact that you know, Hamakua, for the most part, we were able to kind of sustain that agricultural nature that's there. So when you get to Hamakua, kind of the more slopey lands with lots of rocks still. Somebody told me once in Hamakua it's like, "I'm farming rocks, sometimes I don't know where they come from. They keep coming up every time we till the soil." So you know, those lands, we put them in pasture and we did develop a forestry program there. And you we oftentimes, as Ka'eo said, people want lands in areas we don't have lands we often get asked, Do you have anything in Waimae? Do you have anything in the Waikoloa area? We don't and that's kind of a nature of the land legacy from Pauahi and where she inherited her lands from. And then you get to Kona, which Ka'eo talked about, our program there we have orcharda in Kona. Lots of coffee, for sure. Probably I don't think most folks know somewhere between 70 to 80% of Kona coffee is grown on land that Kamehameha leases to farmers, right. So we're a big part of that kind of Kona coffee commodity. But we also have farmers doing mac nuts and cocoa in Kona. We have ulu, mango, dragon fruit. We kind of start to get the real variety of other crops that folks have tried over the years when you know macademia has gone down. Some people have cut their 30 plus year old trees to try a new crop. We are proud that the largest Kona, the queen bee provider in the nation, is on our land in Kona. So you know lots of I think services to agriculture as a broader industry also happen on our lands when you think of pieces like that. Then we get to Ka'u and we see more ranching, we see more mac nuts in Ka'u. And so every region is a little different. You get to Oahu, more urbanized right, and so we have pockets of farms in places where we've been able to maintain agriculture. And North Shore I think is the most notable to people who live on Oahu. Maui, we have lands on the Lahina side in Kuia. Water is a challenge for us there. So we have small farm going there, cacao farm. We also have an education program for farmers there and I think that's a big component too. What else are we doing besides just leasing land? Partnerships we've developed. I think that's really going to be key to our success for like that next elevation of finding out what technical assistance do farmers need? What kind of support work to get started? And so we have a really good partnership with GoFarm. In fact, they're on our lands in Hilo right next to our ag office, developing new farmers every day through their cohorts. And we're on standby when those farmers are looking for land when they graduate. But you know, to be honest, many farmers who have gone through their program have access to land already. So we aren't really seeing that pipeline, as we initially thought, at least in the Hilo program. But yeah, everywhere across the states a little bit different in terms of the needs, and then the lands that we have available. And then the quality of those lands, access to infrastructure, etc. In terms of the cost for land, I think we're we really pride ourselves on being accessible in terms of costs. I mean, the average cost of our land is around $250 an acre a year. So if a farmer is looking at a 10 acre farm, we're just over $200 a month in terms of their land cost. So what we're often finding is, land is not necessarily the biggest obstacle for farmers to get started. So again, back to the partnerships, what are the challenges for farmers to get started? I mean, for eight years, we've had the Mahi'ai Match-Up program, which we've done different versions of. We've done Mahi'ai Scale-Up because we also saw, okay there's, there's a need, there's a lot of farmers and they just need that next level up, right? That next cash infusion to get them to scale up their farm and get to the next level. So, to Ka'eo's point, I think we've really been putting our our thoughts to paper since the 2009 Ag Plan. That was the first time we did an agricultural plan in our history. And how can we really be the agriculture or lessor of choice? How can we help farmers and ranchers get a leg up in the marketplace, and marketing. All those pieces, right, are parts to success. And another way we help new farmers is we can allow them tenant improvements during their first three years of establishing their farm as a way to really try to alleviate the cost of land being their their biggest hurdle. And so I could probably go on, there's so many other things I was thinking of as Ka'eo was talking that I see in me right now. But maybe I'll pause there and see if you want to take...
Jim:I'm making some notes here myself. There's so much right that you just that you both talked about. What percent of, you have a lot of of acres in ag, but what percent of those are large? Ag what percent of those are small? I think about their stats say about their about 7000 ag producers in Hawaii. And of those. I think the majority are for four acres or less is my memory of the stats. A large percentage of our ag producers in Hawaii are small ag so I was just kind of curious what the what the allocation was of small ag producers on your lands versus larger ag producers. Let's use, let's just say four acres or less as kind of a delineation.
Marissa Harman:Well, our farms are set up a little different. Like if you look at Kona, where we have 600 farmers, you know, really two thirds of our farmer rancher tenants are in Kona, those farms, the base zoning is five acre minimum. So those farms tend to range from five to 10 to 20 acres depending on how the layout of that parcel subdivision was. So I consider those still small farms in our perspective, because they're mostly run by a single family or a generational household. So I would consider probably at least two thirds of our farms are in that basket. And if you go to the Puna, Hilo, Hamakua Coast, we have probably another 130 farmers there. Some of those are our ranches, right, so the size and scale, it's more on the larger side, because we're in some cases looking at 700 acre ranch leases. But if we we take off about maybe 30 of those that are large ranches in Hamakua, you know, maybe 700 of our 900 just Hawaii Island I would put in that that small farmer basket.
Jim:That's that's interesting, because that seems like it's, it's in sync with with the needs that we've heard expressed by the producers we've interviewed. I guess it's worth asking as well, is the price that you said was about what's a $250 per acre per year?
Marissa Harman:So an average, you know, it depends on the crop and
Jim:Yeah, and that may depend on the number of acres that are leased and term and things like that, of course, it's normal. But, you know, if folks that we speak to comment that you know, all the people within that have large acreage that or big ag are getting the best prices and, and that and that the small guys are getting the inflated prices and aren't getting long term leases. That sounds like maybe that information is just perhaps even old. Right? Ka'eo mentioned....
Marissa Harman:I would agree Jim, yes.
Jim:So, yeah, it sounds like it may just be gone from 20-30 years ago, even, right? That that was more true.
Kaʻeo Duarte:Yeah, oh, let me take a stab at it. And again, Marissa is closer to the details nowadays than I am, and I'll let her fill in and correct me if I get anything wrong here. But kind of building on her point, we we do give, and we have in the past, to try and get land into production, we have yet given reduced rent. We have by policy, we are allowed to be able to give some rent reduct for like three to five years or so and tenant improvement where it makes sense to get people up and running. And maybe that plays into some of what people have heard when we're trying to get people up and going. But in general, our rents are not based on on size and acreage or based on on the use. So we actually have some guidelines that, How often do we reset it and check it on it? Every five years or so?
Marissa Harman:Five years. And it's an internal set of guidelines. Yeah.
Kaʻeo Duarte:So we do do, we do work with consultants to take a look at a at lease pricing and we we kind of separat it by, again, the types of crop use. So for really high value, deep soil, with water, with roads, that are good for certain kinds of vegetable crops or high value crops we'll have, our orchard crops, will have a certain set of pricing that we think is competitive for Hawaii. And then for like, for instance, pasture lands we'll have a range based on carrying capacity of the land, how many animals can those lands, so you know, for those ranchers who are renting some really tough lava, you know, hale koa lands, and so on and so forth, that can't carry that much cattle per acre, you know, yeah, they're their rents per acre for those pasture lands will be lower than say really lush prime pasture lands that can have a higher current carrying capacity for cattle will be slightly higher. So for pasture, there'll be a range, for our orchard and vegetable and so forth, there'll be a range. For traditional crops, other kinds of uses, we also have a range. So that allows us
Marissa Harman:Just to give some reference to what our rents to one be have some level of rigor but also gives some flexibility to Marissa's team, as they work with different partners and different labs in different places. So we try and have some level of standardization so we can, you know, be fair and consistent across the State, the five islands we manage, while also having some level of flexibility. But Marissa, maybe you can chime in if I'm missing anthing. are maybe compared to other smaller private landowners, maybe 10 years ago or so when sweet potato was all the rage in Hilo and Hamakua and the farmers couldn't find enough land to plant sweet potato for export. You know, while we don't ask other landowners what their rents are, and we generally don't share specific details of leases, the farmers who would farm with us and farm with other landowners who say, "Oh, your rents are so much more reasonable. We're paying $400 to$800 an acre, but that was for fresh, never planted sweet potato land that they felt they could guarantee was not going to have bugs and pests and other disease. But it was a little shocking to to hear. And I think it really goes to where some of our values are in terms of what really truly focusing on supporting ag and the farmers. And I think to that stewardship point also, right, and the lands are stewarded. We have somebody there, taking care of them, and they're being productive. They're producing food. And so we kind of look at all those other outcomes that come along with with the farm itself.
Jim:That's great. I think, I mean I have a lot more questions but let's, let's move to the next topic, which I think would be more, most interesting to our audience or more interesting than then my questions. Perhaps if you had an example or two of some of the land management successes or challenges. I mean, one that comes to mind for me, because I'm on the Hamakua coast is perhaps the eucalyptus trees that were planted there. And, you know, what I hear, part of it's potentially all gossip from my neighbors, right? And I don't know how much is fact. Part of it is I mean, maybe maybe perhaps not paying enough attention but so you hear stories about how that land was, was supposed to be developed and how that failed and then other things were tried and that failed. And, you know, we see the eucalyptus trees, you know, month or two ago being trimmed to not take out all the power lines every time there's a big storm. And so I just I don't know if that's, I don't know if that's an example you want to use or if that's an appropriate one, but whatever examples you might want to use of some of the land management of successes or challenges that you've had to deal with as an example,
Marissa Harman:Well, maybe there's a piece of that I could take that is relative to really any crop and I think challenge is often the market, right. So as we've seen, the original market intended when the original planting was done when neither Keʻoa or I were here, but that has changed over time, right? So the world market, the global market, and the impact on our crops. So oftentimes, we see our tenants growing, what can sell. So for example, I know at one point, cilantro got hit on Oahu with I don't know if there was a bad storm or, so then farmers here picked up on that, and Okay, I'm gonna grow cilantro. And then it was too rainy and Hilo for it, right? So I think one of the bigger challenges is the farmers having kind of a stable market, where they know, I can produce this much I'm gonna garner this much revenue, and I can keep going. So I think there's so many challenges that that impact our farmers in it kind of just tried to put some notes down this morning that so we've talked about infrastructure, right. So in the places where we've had plantations, we do have old road systems, but those need to be maintained. Same with water systems. Labor has been a big challenge for a lot of our farmers, especially the ones that depend on pickers for mac nuts, and coffee and have these kind of, you know, 5 to 10 acre farms, where it's a little hard for the family to do it all. And we've seen labor be probably a constant issue in the 15 years that I've been at Kamehameha, all ties to also global economy too, right, and things that are happening out there. And then I think with CTAHR, you guys don't very well, just the monitoring of disease and pests that we're dealing with, I would say on a constant, right? New reports coming out from CTAHR. I'm always watching what's coming out on the monthly report from Andrea. I think other things that we I think small farmers deal with that we deal with on a larger basis; real property tax and the challenges of keeping that agricultural land in ag, right, and working. We've tried to establish the relationship with the county of Hawaii where most of our lands are, Just kind of keeping that dialogue ongoing, with annual valuations and as others develop their ag land around us, right. And I think another challenge too, is just keeping up what we have. That repair and maintenance and ongoing commitment to agriculture that in turn then supports the farmers who are on our lands. Kaʻeo I don't know if you want to add anything.
Kaʻeo Duarte:Yeah, a little bit. And maybe to again build on, I'll get to Hamakua and eucalyptus trees a little bit there. But again, to tie back to what we talked about earlier, the transition from plantations. Again, the challenge and the opportunity. So it's hard work, transitioning former plantation lands to a new feature, but it's also exciting and rewarding work on that journey. So on North Shore of Oahu, it's a certain journey around infrastructure and cost and how do we make this pencil out? I do think that's important. Me, I will be real, you know, frankly, yes, we do want our agricultural portfolio, and we're not we're not government, we are identifying trust, and and we are trying to manage our lands to create both financial and non financial outcomes, both to benefit the schools, but also our community. So that's what we're always trying to do. And for our ag lands, you know, we really are looking towards a future where how to do our part to make agriculture a self sustaining industry again, in Hawaii? It's not the look the way it did before, nor should it, what the plantations looked like. I donʻt think anyone had that answer, but we are committed to being a part of that journey. So from when the plantations come back, came back we were in the red. I mean, our agricultural portfolio is in the red for many many years. We are proud that in, I donʻt know what Marissa maybe five, six years ago, it's finally peeked into the black. It's more a little sliver of our of our endowment from a financial perspective, but we are we're we're we're proud to be able to move both on the pounds and 70 different crops that are grown on our lands. So the diversity of crops, as well as being able to, how do we have a viable self sustaining agricultural portfolio of a diverse set of tenants and opportunities? And again, it looks different in different places. Hamakua is an interesting one. That Marissa mentioned that actually is not a part of Pauhai's inheritance. So the Hamakua lands, there are there are two skinny ahupuaʻa on Hamakua that she did inherit, but otherwise the majority of that is is fairly new as part of the Kamehameha Schools family, purchased in the 90s, the mid 90s, you know 30,000 acres purchased at auction. So when that decision was made in the 90s, as you can imagine, and as plantations all over, we're shutting down, huge impacts on communities, like in Hamakua and Paauilo, Honokaa, and so on and so forth. So working with community and so forth, how do we put that much acreage into active use immediately so that, you know, all the kinds of issues that happen with land just stays vacant don't aren't realized. Of course, that's happening a time when we did it. I mean, we have ever been honest about it, we did not have a viable and really robust agricultural industry outside of plantations. And I would say, we're still working on that as the state. You know, so there was that, like, there was a bunch of, so this is not a cop out, but there was not like a bunch of ag to just jump on to 30,000 acres. So to keep it real simple, the general strategy was okay, we bought these lands, you know, rather suddenly, in the mid 90s. The lands makai of the ditch, were put into pasture with a thought of ranchers, were ready to take it on, and put fencing and get those lands, you know, secured and producing these beef for Hawaii. And the thought was, again, makai of the ditch, because one day we could, you know, potentially extract some of those lands upon ranching for other uses, as the agricultural industry further developed. That because there's the ditch there was, you know, have waters everything makai of the ditch was pasture with an eye for diversification in the future, as the ag industry developed. Everything mauka of the ditch where there was no water? Yeah, the thought was forestry. And as Marissa said, you know, at that time, there was strong economics around around those trees. And yeah, it hasn't panned out the way we thought it would, or that our master tenant thought it would be. And those trees definitely, you know, should have been harvested years ago per their original plan. But you've gone through a couple of lessees at this time, who have had to, you know, walk away and we took a little bit of a licking with trying to make that happen. And we are actively looking to find some ways to make those those trees productive from some kind of fuel or fiber perspective, while at the same time Marissa and the team is trying to already diversify the use of those lands with civil pastoral use under the trees. Lands that were harvested, are being repositioned for other kinds of uses. Ranching, dairy. We have a new dairy lesee to try and bring milk back to our islands. And then with new community tenants, like HuiMAU in Paauilo doing cultural ag education community work, and we're excited about seeing little people, because as we are on a journey to diversify. So Hamakua is a good example around, yeah, there's definitely been challenges on this journey and we're trying to adopt, adapt and flex as we move forward. Does that make sense?
Jim:Yeah. And I imagine it would have been much simpler for you folks, if it had been a success, right? And you could just be the landlord or the leasor, the lessor, lessor of lands. And, and the plan of the person that's leasing it was successful. That's what everyone wants to think. And imagine, it's just, it's just when it becomes complex, and things do not work out, which happens a lot in in agriculture, then you actually end up doing a lot more work as a result, and a lot more work than I expect you'd want to have to as the lessor. So. So yes, that's...
Kaʻeo Duarte:I would say, just to add is, I think it's an important point is, as we look at our agricultural lands, we're all, we're always trying to look at industries more and more so. So I know Jim will have another session on food systems and we'll talk more about this at that podcast. I'll try and refrain from getting into it today, but especially at an educational institution, jobs, careers and industries and the long term institution. Like how do we invest their position our lands to support vibrant communities, which inherently must include local jobs, careers and industries? So the forestry, I was, though we weren't there at original planting when the second round of lessees came we were in conversations around, and it really wasn't just about eucalyptus, you know, for for energy and so forth. It was how do we create a forestry industry? Just as we're trying to create an agricultural industry for our food system industry, how do we create a fiber hardwood, and a diverse robust forests industry with jobs and different careers tied for from planting and maintenance to harvesting to... I mean the thought was eventually get to a place where high value hardwoods - obviously we do have koa forests and so forth - to that end, all the way to you know, veneers and laminates and plywoods. And how do we create an industry creating fiber and wood products for, grown in Hawaii for Hawaii, and creating an economics. But creating that forestry industry has, yeah, and it's proving a lot harder than folk thought. But there's a part of, of Kamehameha Schools that still believes that, aside from food production, that side of agriculture, that forestry and timber, done correctly, if we truly want Hawaii to be able to support itself with again, fiber and wood, have its place. But I think we just haven't cracked that nut yet of how to do that. And whether eucalyptus is the right tree or not, that's obviously debatable. Lessons learned. But that's kind of part of our thought process also.
Jim:And one key thing that I heard a few times as we've been talking, or what I think is key because we hear a lot of folks in in ag production and are supporting ag production in the islands I think is key to success is growing more and having more food that's grown, that stays on the islands and is not sent off island. It's not exported. Just like you know, like your, I hear you saying creating jobs is part of one of the criteria that's looked at, but is that one of the criteria that you're assessing when someone applies for lands? Is is the is the food that's produced or the products produced going to be used locally? Or is that, is that on your radar or is that not one of the factors that's part of part of the variables you assess?
Marissa Harman:I think it's something we definitely I mean, obviously, we talked about what their plan is. What's your crop plan, production plan? You know, how do you plan to put this plan into use? But I think it comes back to that market question. And I, the other team leader you'll meet later in the week, you know, focusing on the sustainable food systems in Hawaii, a big part of that conversation is changing the palette, right? Creating that ono that people have for the crops that we can grow here. So I think it's it's a really tough situation for a farmer to, do they want to grow a crop that we know is good for Hawaii, but they might not be able to sell it where the price they have to sell it at is too high. So I think there's a big piece here with a consumer. Because I think Richard Hau used to always say, right, "if the farmer is going to make money, the farmer is going to farm" right? So I think we have to honor that business side for our farmers, right? I mean, we can't expect people to grow our food and then not be willing to pay them what they deserve for it. So I don't know that we've had as many conversations on that end Ka'eo, but it's definitely part of the larger puzzle for changing how food stays in Hawaii, right? And and what people want to import from other places. So a lot of that I think even our local chefs that started out that Hawaii cuisine really have helped with producing that ono for locally grown food, but at a price that maybe not accessible to all consumers. So I think that's a big part of it, Jim. People want to grow and can grow and can make a living at.
Kaʻeo Duarte:Yeah, I add to that, because I think the short answer, I think, to your question, like if we're trying to give preference or privilege to food crops. More recently, yes, I think, you know, as the plantations came back, I mean there's a time, especially when there was a dearth of new farmers and opportunities, just, you know, to be real honest, and the farmer or rancher who, you know, had the will and the experience and were willing to work the land? You know, we were interested and we were interested in talking to them, and especially in places where we've been challenged with finding farmers. I think as we've moved along, we and under our current strategic plan, we absolutely have a food system focus. We even have a goal at the enterprise level at the highest level of our report card to Trustees is actually a food systems goal of the amount of food produced. And we have measures and targets to track the amount of food produced on our land, as well as the food that we are procuring and also being processing and distributing on our lands. But again, we'll save that for the food systems conversation. So we have some very intentional institutional goals around food. So as vacant land come available Marissa and the team are specifically trying to focus on on local food type production, rather than other non food type items and so forth. So we're getting a little bit more picky if you will, around, like, like Marissa said that no new tenant has to sub submit a farm plan. So we are looking for experience that they have sense some sense of what they want to do, and some sense of a plan. And then you have local food type production and diversification, right? We are looking to try and diversify our portfolio. Like any farmer knows, or any portfolio owner of assets knows, having a diverse portfolio is inherently more robust, especially for a long term institution like us. So what that means is, in certain areas where we have, you know, mostly pasture or, or mostly coffee, or so on and so forth, those link to our ranchers, or coffee farmers, but if there's a farmer comes in with a really innovative plan to get a new crop going or to fill a gap in the local market for production, you know, I think we'll take a hard look at that. Whereas we could, you know, the easy route might be to go with a certain type of use that is, is kind of well proven, and so forth. But in some cases, we are intentionally trying to diversify. And I would say for indigenous crops, like kalo, ulu, and so on, and so forth. As a native Hawaiian institution, we are also trying to increase the percentage of our lands used for our indigenous native foreign crops also. And that is incremental. But we are slowly increasing that acreage over time in different parts of the islands.
Marissa Harman:If I can just add one more thing Jim 'cause you asked about successes and so I think spinning off of what Kaʻeo just talked about, it reminded me of the work we've been doing with the Ulu Co-op. So at our Hilo office location we had, we built a postharvest building that, at the time we were designing it, we had built it with the mind to keep our Hilo farmers kind of, who were starting to face food safety issues, that we would have a food safety certified facility where they could come do post harvest wash and pack. Some of those farmers moved on in the time that it took us to design permit and build that structure but fortunately, we were able to develop a partnership with the Ulu Co-op who is now the main lessee of that facility. And they're using it as their East Hawaii aggregation site. And what we've also seen is a couple of new Ulu orchard leases that we've embarked on in the North Hill area, who are members of the Ulu Co-op. So I think that's a good example of success where KS could provide kind of the foundational infrastructure for something that maybe a farmer couldn't build on their own, but then can be utilized by multiple farmers to kind of really elevate that market for that local crop. So we're pretty proud of that project.
Jim:Indeed. I know Ulu Co-op is one of the one of the key pieces of the ag puzzle these days, it seems in, in that Ulu, as Kaʻeo was mentioning, or as you were mentioning, Marissa. I mean, if you want to foster more, more growing up the canoe crops and use of that throughout the islands, I think some folks don't know Ulu and how to prepare it. And they partnered with Sam Choy on a cookbook that has just come out so I think they're they're really ahead of the game and key to connecting a bunch of the pieces that are necessary to make it.
Marissa Harman:And that's that market piece and creating that ono and people know how to cook it and then they desire it and they want to buy it right. So it's kind of that full circle picture, yeah.
Kaʻeo Duarte:I think in general on the on Ulu Co-op, but maybe in generalizing from the Ulu Co-op to food hubs. And again, we'll probably talk more about it Jim in the food systems podcast, but Ulu Co-op and other food hubs are critical, or the point you raised earlier, so many of our farms on Hawaii are small farms, and that inherently creates a certain challenge. opportunity again, for Hawaii's food system again. Beyond agriculture, the whole system, to make that system work; aggregation, distribution and so forth. I've heard many you know, ag expert economists say that it will never work in Hawaii unless you have really mid to large scale farms. You need scale or ag just simply will not work. But then I you know, for me, you know, I pondered that a lot and but at the end of the day, I'm like, well, the reality is we have hundreds and hundreds of small farms. So you know, we can theorize that Ag won't work in Hawaii unless we have really large farms at scale. But the reality is we have many less many small farms. So we can either admit, admit defeat or we can say "No, there's a way to do it, there's a way to create an a food system infrastructure that can be successful with small farms. I'm not saying we've cracked the nut yet as a State, but I think the Ulu Co-op and all the food hubs have been a critical... I know there's still a lot still to be worked out, and there's still a small percentage of the whole value chain or supply chain of food that gets on our tables and in our refrigerators, but it's critical for us to be supporting them. Because, again, the whole food hub concept is able to have an aggregator, connector to many small farms, which could be a critical addition to the food system in Hawaii, to help make a large network of small farms successful. But I do think if we cannot crack that nut, we're going to be continually continue to be reliant on on importation of food, from the current paradigm of the way the system is set up. So I just would just bring that piece in because for KS and from the State, the fact that we have so many small farms, it is what it is. I don't think that's going to change anytime soon. So I think while there's nothing wrong with mid to large scale farms, and they absolutely have their place, I think we got to figure out a way to create that infrastructure.
Jim:Absolutely. And it does seem to be increasing in numbers for sure. And percentage of the total number of farmers. So but I mean, I've taken, we've taken up a lot of your time here so just as kind of a last question that I think might be most valuable to some of the folks that would be listening in, that are ag producers or or want to be an ag production is if I'm, say I'm a small farmer, 10 acres or less is what I what I feel I can manage on my own as a start, and I wanted to try to get access to available land that is that Kamehameha Schools has what would be the process I would go through?
Marissa Harman:Sure, I'll take that question, Jim. So we have a'aina website, we can provide you the link later, Jim. It's www.KSBE.edu/aina. And I think one of the new features we have is folks can actually go on to our interactive map and navigate, number one, where our lands even are located. The"Contact Us" button on there will take the email writer to me that that email gets forwarded to me. So I personally do feel the all the inquiries for land. And then from there, I connect the requester with the appropriate asset manager, depending on the region that they're interested in. We have a fairly simple tenant application that we asked folks to fill out and give us an idea of what they're looking for and that kind of starts the conversation with the asset managers. So that's the general process. I know one of your earlier questions was on finding tenants. So we do keep our tenants so the vacancies tend to be low because we love to continue to work with our farmers and ranchers when that relationship is going Well. So I think I know there's some frustration out there in terms of like, is there any land available and to Kaʻeo's point, depends where you live. So I'm happy to talk with folks if they connect with us through our website, and we can take that conversation from there.
Jim:Okay, start with the map and I'll put a link in in the show notes, as well as in the YouTube notes for here. I think. I think this has been very helpful. For the YouTube audience and for the one folks that watch it on video, I wondered if you did want to take a minute to explain the backgrounds that you chose for the videos because I thought those might be interesting to our viewers.
Marissa Harman:Our virtual backgrounds?
Jim:Your virtual backgrounds, so Marissa, would you mind sharing?
Marissa Harman:Sure. So I'm on this side of my my virtual background. It says "Mahalo Pauhai" so I was explaining to Jim when we got on that we're getting into the month leading up to Pauahi's birthday we celebrate Founder's Day on December 19, her birthday, or around it if it falls on a weekend. And so I decided to just change my background today as we're leading up to that month, remembering Pauhai and I think just starting out with the foundation of our conversation today. Who we are is because of Pauahi. So that's my background today. Thank you.
Jim:And Kaʻeo?
Kaʻeo Duarte:Yeah, so I've chose to, I'm sitting in our we say our Keauhou office but it's actually an ahupua'a of Kahaluʻu so I chose so this image is of the heiau in the makai region of Kahaluʻu, ahupua'a here in Kona. Important both for Kamehameha Schools is probably, not probably it is our highest concentration of sacred sites nd heiau burial. And that was a center of thinking, of knowledge, of politics of learning for alii. And we've recently, as we've removed the former Keauhou Beach Hotel and really dedicating it for our kids, our family, and our community and our and ʻike kupuna in ancestral knowledge as a kind of a piko or a center of of knowledge and education for our little ones. And our, all of our learners from our little ones to our kupuna learners, all of us are lifelong learners. And I'm actually, my ohana, my, my grandma's from Kahaluʻu, born on, and in the middle of Kamehameha Schools land, so it's also important to me personally, this ahupua'a just where I'm sitting today
Jim:Nice, thank you. I think this has been really valuable for me. I read, I read the book"Broken Trust," right? It was one of the one of the books I was told to read to really help understand some of of what's happened in the culture and Kamehameha Schools' involvement. And it's, it's, I think, as a result, it's been a black eye, frankly, on Kamehameha that I felt, I feel like may cause people to jump to conclusions, to perhaps negative conclusions about Kamehameha. So I think it's, I think this has shed a lot of light on all the work you are doing. Again, this is my perspective, but it seems like it's almost like parenting is what you're having to do. And, and because it's not just a landlord tenant relationship, it's it's really a nurturing relationship, where you're, you're trying to ensure the success of the folks that are on the land. And and in some cases, you know, use the parenting analogy, I mean, in some cases the kids struggle, and they fail, and they they are in trouble. And it sounds like you folks need to, are regularly jumping in to try to help and try to help ensure their success. So I really appreciate the deeper conversation, richer conversation around at all. We'd like to thank Kaʻeo and Marissa for their perspectives on the history and role of KS as land manager in Hawaii. We hope this look at the details and challenges they face may help prepare some broken trust we have heard many Hawaii residents voice in reference to KS actions of the past. Actions that have now evolved to philosophies based on a larger view of the entire Hawaii food system and driven by the KS strategic plan
Kaʻeo Duarte:I donʻt know if the parent, the parent analogy would be appreciated by our tenants. Just just that, yes. I mean, the history of Kamehameha schools, the ups and downs, I've read the history over time. It's again, lots of successes and lots of challenges and periods that have been sore spots for Kamehameha schools and our community. But the I will say the partnering. I mean even from our tenants with Marissa and the team, and it's a continual journey. And I can I can, I'll say out loud, you know, we have very lively conversations internally. As we, Marissa has eight people, you know, eight asset managers on five islands for all of these lands. And it's not an excuse, or a copout. But you know, trying to find a balance between just the 1001 thing that just pop up on a daily basis and needs to be done from an operational standpoint on such a large portfolio of people, right? It's not just land, it's people. So you have a mix of ʻaina and people. There's so much beauty and opportunity in that but there's a lot of challenges too. So I think we really want to move towards more engagement and relationships. So that's the journey we are on, especially for ag, and all these, that part of that that transition from plantations. We don't want to be just transactional. Our vision is how do we a community of farmers and lands where we're restoring people and place simultaneously that through the restoration of these lands, we're restoring people and community? Again, we don't have it all figured out. But that's our vision. That's the destination in our mind. And as you know, relationships and trust is absolutely critical. And that takes time. There's some places that I've been in many conversations, really conversations with, angry conversations, tears, but also a lot of laughter and recovery and joy. So community by community, placed by place. I just want to say that out loud for us with our tenants/partners. I really want to think of them as partners helping us steward these lands to create food, fiber, other kinds of non food products, beef, so on and so forth, and how do we engage in a way that we're able to create that kind of trust and relationships. But just mahalo for allowing us the chance to share the journey we're on, as we're trying to create that community of partners, and relationships in this community, because all of us on this team, we all live in this community. Wether itʻs Marissa in Hilo, or me in Koa. I mean, my family, I mean, literally born and raised on a Kamehameha Schools lease for four generations. So it's important both personally and professionally to us. But we encourage dialogues like this are important. We have nothing to hide. We, again, we know we're not perfect, but we do want to move forward in a positive direction. So look forward to more conversations.
Jim:No, thank you. And, and I guess I also feel compelled to comment. Again, from my perspective, I see Kamehameha Schools as deeply rooted in the past and with a great respect for the history of place and people. However, it's clear that it's, you are constantly evolving, and especially more recently, trying new paradigms and new models to see what works. And so you're not, you're not stuck in the past but instead, you're just kind of constantly evolving and paying attention to what makes sense for the present and the future.
Marissa Harman:And Jim, if your listeners and viewers go on to our ʻaina website, and we only talked about agriculture today, but there'll be able to see a variety of things we're doing on our lands in addition to agriculture, right? So we have our energy program, we're doing community plans that we have websites for, so there is a lot to Kamehameha. This is one facet of it.
Jim:We will talk again soon about some more of the facets, so thank thank you both so much.
Marissa Harman:Thank you so much, mahalo nui.
Kaʻeo Duarte:Aloha.
Jim:The intention of this podcast series is to create a safe space for respectful and inclusive dialogue with people from across a broad and diverse spectrum involved in growing and making accessible the food we share together. A diversity of voices, perspectives and experiences can serve to deepen mutual understanding, to spark creative problem solving, and provide insight into the complexities of our agricultural system. If you our listeners have experiences with Hawaii agricultural ecosystems, from small holder farms to large even including multinational agricultural industrial companies, or anywhere in between, and he would like to share your story, please contact us. We welcome your voices and perspectives